Massive Sustainment Costs Creating F-35 Affordability Issues

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spazsinbad

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Unread post05 Dec 2021, 20:23

First rule of propaganda? REPEAT false claims so many times that the claims become true. The $36K MEME is out forever.
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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optimist

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Unread post05 Dec 2021, 23:35

spazsinbad wrote:
Can a Service Contract Save the F-35? [very long article best read at source - 5 page PDF attached below]
03 Dec 2021 John A. Tirpak


... Fick, in a wide-ranging discussion with reporters in September, also said the F-35 is already close to “delivering fifth-gen capabilities at high-end fourth-generation costs.” By comparison, the F-15EX and F/A-18E/F cost about $29,000-$30,000 per hour to operate, and the new sustainment contract stipulates that Lockheed will get F-35 operating costs down to $30,000 per hour by the end of 2023. The Air Force wants the F-35 hourly cost comparable to the F-16, historically around $22,000 per hour, but in fiscal 2020 it was up to $27,000 per hour.

The $30,000 per hour goal by 2023 is for the entire air vehicle, including the Pratt & Whitney F135 engine, Fick noted, but sustainment contracts with Pratt are negotiated separately from Lockheed Martin. The grand number includes “a placeholder for propulsion,” he said.



It's a similar price to the F-15ex and super hornet. Yet the F-35 is too dear :doh:
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sunstersun

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Unread post06 Dec 2021, 01:23

If Boeing needs a bridge because DOD and Congress want to keep Boeing's fighter business alive fine. It makes some sense.

Don't like about it and smear the F-35 lmao.
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sunstersun

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Unread post12 Dec 2021, 20:42

The real challenge for the F-35 isn't foreign competitions anymore, but rather the F-16 replacement.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post14 Dec 2021, 10:47

To me all this sound pretty ridiculous:

USAF/USN/USMC: "We want a fighter that:"

- is VLO stealth and
- has best flying characteristics of F-16 and F/A-18 and
- has about equal payload to F-15E and
- has about equal range/endurance to F-15E but without EFTs and
- has fully spherical IRST and MLD/MAW system and
- has internal targeting pod and
- has the most advanced sensor fusion system and
- has to have most advanced networking system anywhere and
- can carry similar internal weapons load as F-16 normal air-to-ground combat load and
- has full 9G/50 degree AoA/Mach 1.6 capability in that air-to-ground weapons load and
- has over 600 nm real-world combat radius in that same weapons load without EFTs and
- has EW suite approaching dedicated EW platforms and
- has carrier variant and
- has STOVL variant
- has to have similar dimensions to F-16

LM: "Ok, we can do all that..."


USAF/USN/USMC: "Oh, and it has to cost same or less to acquire than 4th gen fighters without any of these capabilities"


LM: "Ok, we can do all that... "


USAF/USN/USMC: "Oh, and it has to cost same or less to operate than 4th gen fighters without any of these capabilities"


LM: "Ok, we can do all that... I guess..." :shock:
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steve2267

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Unread post14 Dec 2021, 15:25

hornetfinn wrote:To me all this sound pretty ridiculous:

USAF/USN/USMC: "We want a fighter that:"

- is VLO stealth and
- has best flying characteristics of F-16 and F/A-18 and
- has about equal payload to F-15E and
- has about equal range/endurance to F-15E but without EFTs and
- has fully spherical IRST and MLD/MAW system and
- has internal targeting pod and
- has the most advanced sensor fusion system and
- has to have most advanced networking system anywhere and
- can carry similar internal weapons load as F-16 normal air-to-ground combat load and
- has full 9G/50 degree AoA/Mach 1.6 capability in that air-to-ground weapons load and
- has over 600 nm real-world combat radius in that same weapons load without EFTs and
- has EW suite approaching dedicated EW platforms and
- has carrier variant and
- has STOVL variant
- has to have similar dimensions to F-16

LM: "Ok, we can do all that..."


USAF/USN/USMC: "Oh, and it has to cost same or less to acquire than 4th gen fighters without any of these capabilities"


LM: "Ok, we can do all that... "


USAF/USN/USMC: "Oh, and it has to cost no more than $25,000 per hour to operate."


LM: "Ok, we can do all that. $25K per hour? Sure, we'll even put it in a service contract. Sign here: _________"

USAF/USN/USMC: "[Gulp] Ummmm.... we'll get back to you... "


FIFY
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post15 Dec 2021, 07:59

Yeah, that was even better version. What I found funny is that F-35 is so much, much more capable than any F-16 version or any other 4th gen aircraft could ever hope to be (as evidenced by many evaluations) but there is still constant whining about having slightly higher operating costs than one of the cheapest (to operate) 4th gen aircraft. For example Finnish and Swiss Air Forces have concluded that F-35A Block 4 will have very similar (or possibly even lower) operating costs to JAS Gripen and Super Hornet. Reimbursement rates indicate that US DoD agrees with this. And those arre without taking into account the reduced need for all kinds of support assets like tankers, ISR platforms, EW platforms and SEAD/DEAD platforms.

It's like wanting to have BMW M5 with the operating costs of Kia Rio... Nothing wrong with that but sounds a bit unrealistic. But LM has actually made that to happen...
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Dec 2021, 08:35

hornetfinn wrote:Yeah, that was even better version. What I found funny is that F-35 is so much, much more capable than any F-16 version or any other 4th gen aircraft could ever hope to be (as evidenced by many evaluations) but there is still constant whining about having slightly higher operating costs than one of the cheapest (to operate) 4th gen aircraft. For example Finnish and Swiss Air Forces have concluded that F-35A Block 4 will have very similar (or possibly even lower) operating costs to JAS Gripen and Super Hornet. Reimbursement rates indicate that US DoD agrees with this. And those arre without taking into account the reduced need for all kinds of support assets like tankers, ISR platforms, EW platforms and SEAD/DEAD platforms.

It's like wanting to have BMW M5 with the operating costs of Kia Rio... Nothing wrong with that but sounds a bit unrealistic. But LM has actually made that to happen...



Yes, this while the F-35 has exchange rates of over 20 to 1 vs the aforementioned types!

F-35 = VALUE
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