India and the F-35?

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spazsinbad

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Unread post21 Dec 2020, 23:49

F-18E VX-23 Super Hornet OFF the Ski Jump PaxRiver https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a94kftGnFnY

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spazsinbad

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Unread post22 Dec 2020, 02:48

Another story with perhaps some extra details about how SHornet MkIII will benefit India and all and sundry so help me....

Boeing Super Hornet Demonstrates Ski-jump Launch Capability 21 Dec 2020 Seapower Staff

https://seapowermagazine.org/boeing-sup ... apability/
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Corsair1963

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Unread post22 Dec 2020, 03:14

As a short-term solution. It may very well be a good option for the Indian Navy.
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ricnunes

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Unread post22 Dec 2020, 14:43

Corsair1963 wrote:As a short-term solution. It may very well be a good option for the Indian Navy.


Agreed.
I can't think right now of a better (or clearly better) fighter aircraft compared to the SH BlockIII which can operate from a carrier with Ski Jump and that India can actually purchase (which means that the F-35, namely the -B is out of the question).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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charlielima223

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Unread post22 Dec 2020, 16:50

Something interesting said in this article.

https://www.overtdefense.com/2020/12/22 ... -contract/
Though Boeing has pursued the IN contract for several years, now the prize appears more lucrative. Earlier this month Admiral Karambir Singh, Chief of the Naval Staff, said that ideally the Navy’s contract would combine with the Indian Air Force’s requirement for an additional 114 twin-engine strike fighters. By merging the two contracts the winning manufacturer will benefit hugely from the deal.


If my memory serves me right...
Even though Dassault won the India's MRCA, the Indian MoD was not happy with how bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo impacted the project. Therefore India did not get their full inventory of how many aircraft they wanted so they reopened another tender with the same goal but at a lower overall price. Boeing has a second bite of the apple.
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Unread post22 Dec 2020, 19:05

charlielima223 wrote:Something interesting said in this article.

https://www.overtdefense.com/2020/12/22 ... -contract/
Though Boeing has pursued the IN contract for several years, now the prize appears more lucrative. Earlier this month Admiral Karambir Singh, Chief of the Naval Staff, said that ideally the Navy’s contract would combine with the Indian Air Force’s requirement for an additional 114 twin-engine strike fighters. By merging the two contracts the winning manufacturer will benefit hugely from the deal.


If my memory serves me right...
Even though Dassault won the India's MRCA, the Indian MoD was not happy with how bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo impacted the project. Therefore India did not get their full inventory of how many aircraft they wanted so they reopened another tender with the same goal but at a lower overall price. Boeing has a second bite of the apple.


the original MMRCA went like this:

Dassault gave them garbage numbers.

Boeing said "well we are out, can't compete with that! best wishes!"

Dassault wins the tender and the price "suddenly, and out of nowhere" escalated to well in excess of what Dassault promised to drive out the other competitors. years of negotiations follow. they get a handful of Rafales at the inflated prices and begin the search for the Rafale supplement.

Should have just done SH from the start, but whatever. They fell for it. The Rafale deal was too good to be true from the start, and obviously so. Which is why Boeing didn't (and legally under the US laws couldn't) compete with Dassault's offer.

Will Cost Escalation Down-Size Rafale Jet Contract?
Defenseworld.net News Analysis 01:01 PM, July 4, 2014 9691
Will Cost Escalation Down-Size Rafale Jet Contract?
India, Dassault Rafale Deal Appears Down-sized
India many consider downsizing the Rafale fighter order from 126 to 80 following concerns over cost escalation, Indian media reports.

The DNA newspaper quoted an unnamed IAF officer saying, “Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) has asked France to re-consider the price. Cost escalations and disagreements over production have delayed the contract.”

The report speculated that in the absence of an agreement on price, India my cut down the order to 80 in order to save money and keep the purchase within the originally budgeted amount of US$ 12 billion.

The Indian MoD and Dassault have not reacted to the report. In fact, both sides have officially kept mum over the progress in the negotiations over the last few months while news quoting unnamed Indian officials has been trickling in from time to time, mostly indicating that the delay is over price negotiations. These reports have not been denied either.

The cost of the program was $12 billion when the initial tender was floated. The price shot up to $18 billion when Dassault won the contract as the lowest bidder in January 2012. The transfer of technology, life cycle costs and creating assembly line might finally cross $20 billion.

The government may find it difficult to justify a nearly 80% price hike for the Rafale jets to the Indian parliament.


Its not that Rafale is a bad airplane, its that its not a cheap airplane, and Dassault lies about the cost by apparently 80 percent.

India finally ended up paying 8.8 billion for 36.


Now here is the big problem with combing the Indian navy and air force, Theyve narrowed everyone to the Rafale and SH.

There are other twin engine options like F-15Ex and Typhoon but they can't land on ships, so the air force is now stuck. thats the fun thing about the navy saying "hell yeah we will join with what the air force wants!" its because the Navy will always have the options narrowed in their favor, since landing on a ship is a deal breaker. its actually a "tyranny by the minority" because it can only flow one way.
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Unread post31 Dec 2020, 21:00

:shock: Repeat of most SEAPOWER magazine story (from a press release it seems) above but I missed this tidbit. WTF? :doh:
In First, Navy Super Hornet Launches from 'Ski Jump' to Prove it Can Fly Off Foreign Carriers
30 Dec 2020 Oriana Pawlyk

"..."The first successful and safe launch of the F/A-18 Super Hornet from a ski jump begins the validation process to operate effectively from Indian Navy aircraft carriers," Ankur Kanaglekar, India Fighter Sales lead for Boeing, said in a statement. "The F/A-18 Block III Super Hornet will not only provide superior war fighting capability to the Indian Navy but also create opportunities for cooperation in naval aviation between the United States and India."...

...Next year, the U.S. Marine Corps' F-35B will begin a first-of-its-kind deployment on the British aircraft carrier Queen Elizabeth. Apart from the Royal Air Force, the Marine Corps is the only other service to operate multiple F-35B fighters; Italy has a single B-variant operated by its Navy." [no mention of the others real & potential [only 1 Italian F-35B? rong]
"...The Cavour upgrade phase started a month after the second Italian Navy’s F35B – individual registration code 4-02 – took off from the Cameri (Novara) Final Assembly and Check Out plant FACO to make its flight to the United States. The aircraft final destination was MCAS Beaufort, in South Carolina, where the aircraft joined the first F-35B (4-01) in supporting the training of the F-35B Italian pilots and technicians. The Italian Navy ordered a total of 15 F-35B fighter jets. The Italian Air Force has the same amount on order (in addition to about 60 F-35A models)...." https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... b-upgrade/ VIA 'doge': viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24829&p=447068&hilit=registration#p447068


Source: https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 ... riers.html

ASLO (yes I know):
"...After the first two of Italy’s F35-Bs went to the Navy and the third to the Air Force, a decision is due, possibly within weeks, on who gets the fourth [2021] one next year..." https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... to-a-head/ via viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24829&p=445931&hilit=possibly#p445931
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Unread post01 Jan 2021, 23:45

XanderCrews wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:Something interesting said in this article.

https://www.overtdefense.com/2020/12/22 ... -contract/
Though Boeing has pursued the IN contract for several years, now the prize appears more lucrative. Earlier this month Admiral Karambir Singh, Chief of the Naval Staff, said that ideally the Navy’s contract would combine with the Indian Air Force’s requirement for an additional 114 twin-engine strike fighters. By merging the two contracts the winning manufacturer will benefit hugely from the deal.


If my memory serves me right...
Even though Dassault won the India's MRCA, the Indian MoD was not happy with how bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo impacted the project. Therefore India did not get their full inventory of how many aircraft they wanted so they reopened another tender with the same goal but at a lower overall price. Boeing has a second bite of the apple.


the original MMRCA went like this:

Dassault gave them garbage numbers.

Boeing said "well we are out, can't compete with that! best wishes!"

Dassault wins the tender and the price "suddenly, and out of nowhere" escalated to well in excess of what Dassault promised to drive out the other competitors. years of negotiations follow. they get a handful of Rafales at the inflated prices and begin the search for the Rafale supplement.

Should have just done SH from the start, but whatever. They fell for it. The Rafale deal was too good to be true from the start, and obviously so. Which is why Boeing didn't (and legally under the US laws couldn't) compete with Dassault's offer.

Will Cost Escalation Down-Size Rafale Jet Contract?
Defenseworld.net News Analysis 01:01 PM, July 4, 2014 9691
Will Cost Escalation Down-Size Rafale Jet Contract?
India, Dassault Rafale Deal Appears Down-sized
India many consider downsizing the Rafale fighter order from 126 to 80 following concerns over cost escalation, Indian media reports.

The DNA newspaper quoted an unnamed IAF officer saying, “Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) has asked France to re-consider the price. Cost escalations and disagreements over production have delayed the contract.”

The report speculated that in the absence of an agreement on price, India my cut down the order to 80 in order to save money and keep the purchase within the originally budgeted amount of US$ 12 billion.

The Indian MoD and Dassault have not reacted to the report. In fact, both sides have officially kept mum over the progress in the negotiations over the last few months while news quoting unnamed Indian officials has been trickling in from time to time, mostly indicating that the delay is over price negotiations. These reports have not been denied either.

The cost of the program was $12 billion when the initial tender was floated. The price shot up to $18 billion when Dassault won the contract as the lowest bidder in January 2012. The transfer of technology, life cycle costs and creating assembly line might finally cross $20 billion.

The government may find it difficult to justify a nearly 80% price hike for the Rafale jets to the Indian parliament.


Its not that Rafale is a bad airplane, its that its not a cheap airplane, and Dassault lies about the cost by apparently 80 percent.

India finally ended up paying 8.8 billion for 36.


Now here is the big problem with combing the Indian navy and air force, Theyve narrowed everyone to the Rafale and SH.

There are other twin engine options like F-15Ex and Typhoon but they can't land on ships, so the air force is now stuck. thats the fun thing about the navy saying "hell yeah we will join with what the air force wants!" its because the Navy will always have the options narrowed in their favor, since landing on a ship is a deal breaker. its actually a "tyranny by the minority" because it can only flow one way.


Its really disappointing to me that India couldn't just buy the F-35. When you add up the botched tender with the Rafael,and Now a large order of Super hornets, you could have fielded a significant amount of Top shelf F-35C or Bees and improved your overall Tactical Aircraft pictures significantly. Now they have spent a fortune and 2 dissimilar types that will cause alot of issues logistically. To make matters worse your primary rival still has fighter jets a generation ahead of yours.
India is a textbook example on how NOT to buy things.
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Unread post02 Jan 2021, 04:47

jessmo112 wrote:It's really disappointing to me that India couldn't just buy the F-35.


I agree with the basic sentiment, except India has the historical stumbling-block of playing all sides of the street since Independence. They simply can not be trusted that much, yet. But I'm far from OK with Gulf Arabs getting a Trump Admin plus US State Dept nod for F-35. That's such a poorly considered decision and one I hope is reversed with a priority. It's horrible to think they could get access to F-35s long before India can, and just to satisfy Israeli geopolitical opportunism.

That stinks ... really stinks. The greed for more sales needs to be backed-off, plus I thought Trump was about America's best interests, first of all? And does the US State Department really think they can get Arabs to align with the USA's aims via that sort of irresponsible 'diplomatic' silliness?

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Unread post02 Jan 2021, 22:42

element1loop wrote:
jessmo112 wrote:I agree with the basic sentiment, except India has the historical stumbling-block of playing all sides of the street since Independence. They simply can not be trusted that much, yet.


https://www.hindustantimes.com/delhi/re ... VxnKI.html

So Nixon want to use nukes against India because it start kicking Pakistan's a$$ which attack India first, and reason for attack was India supported democratic right of East Pakistan on secession (East Pakistan even back them was majority of Pakistan).

Even today you favored chicom puddle Pakistan which is military dictatorship and sponsor of Talibans over world's biggest democracy.

If you ask me it is Indians which can't thrust you at all.
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jessmo112

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Unread post02 Jan 2021, 22:46

I just think that as of today. India and American interests align. I think that a strong India with 150-200 F-35s would help check Chinese adventurism. I have noticed that the Chinese only like to fight battles then can win.
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Unread post02 Jan 2021, 22:50

jessmo112 wrote:I just think that as of today. India and American interests align. I think that a strong India with 150-200 F-35s would help check Chinese adventurism. I have noticed that the Chinese only like to fight battles then can win.


Nope they aren't align, because US still support Pakistan. Also China can't win any real war with India, geography is bitch in region where they could collide.
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Unread post03 Jan 2021, 03:07

jessmo112 wrote:I just think that as of today. India and American interests align. I think that a strong India with 150-200 F-35s would help check Chinese adventurism. I have noticed that the Chinese only like to fight battles then can win.


India would have an edge with 36 of them for purely defensive purposes. We have zero reason to suspect China has AAM technology able to counter F-35, let alone have the ability to sneak a gun kill on one.
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Unread post04 Jan 2021, 02:29

milosh wrote:
jessmo112 wrote:I just think that as of today. India and American interests align. I think that a strong India with 150-200 F-35s would help check Chinese adventurism. I have noticed that the Chinese only like to fight battles then can win.


Nope they aren't align, because US still support Pakistan. Also China can't win any real war with India, geography is bitch in region where they could collide.



The US still provide a very modest amount of aid to Pakistan. Yet, is hardly aligned with them as close allies. This while the US-India relations are growing closer by the day....
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Unread post04 Jan 2021, 12:37

Indian MiG-21 was down by AIM-120 in Feb 2020.

So when US stop selling weapons to Pakistan, India and US could became lot closer. Btw it is US which wanted to sanctioned India because it is buying russian weapons to defend itself from Pakistan and China not long ago.

You Americans need to stop acting like world is still spinning around you, it doesn't. You need India and even Russia lot more then they need you, of course if you want to have any chance in stopping China.
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