India and the F-35?

[mixelflick]

And if the latest reports are true, even non-AESA equipped MKI's can detect the J-20...

In a perfect world, I think we should sell the F-35 to India. Would turn the tide once and for all insofar as getting away from Russia, and with the West in her alliance vs. China. It just makes sense...

[spazsinbad]

Looks as though India puts the KYBOSH on any F-35 deal when going ahead with this purchase - just another stuff up eh.

India moves towards acquiring Russian S-400 missile systems despite US opposition
01 Jul 2018 Rajat Pandit | TNN

"NEW DELHI: India is now swiftly moving towards acquiring five advanced S-400 Triumf air defence missile systems from Russia despite the looming threat of US sanctions, with the defence ministry clearing the decks for the proposed Rs 39,000 crore deal.

Top sources say the defence acquisitions council (DAC), chaired by minister Nirmala Sitharaman, on Thursday, approved the “minor deviations” in the mega S-400 deal that had emerged during the recently-concluded commercial negotiations with Russia.

“The S-400 procurement case will now go to the finance ministry for clearance and the PM-led Cabinet Committee on Security for the final nod. The country’s top political leadership will have to take a call on when the actual contract can be inked,” said a source.... [so maybe they won't DO IT?]

...The plan is to fully integrate the S-400 systems with the IAF’s air defence network called IACCS (integrated air command and control system), which combines a wide array of sensors and weapons, to further enhance their lethality and plug gaps in the country’s airspace. China, incidentally, has already begun to induct six S-400 batteries, which is designated the `SA-21 Growler’ by NATO, under a $3 billion deal inked in 2014."

Source: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 810964.cms

[spazsinbad]

India approves S-400 buy from Russia, amid expectations for more bilateral deals
29 Sep 2018 Vivek Raghuvanshi

"NEW DELHI — India has quietly approved a $5.43 billion program to buy five S-400 Triumf air defense systems from Russia, just a week before Russian President Vladimir Putin’s Oct. 5 visit to the country. The program was approved earlier this week by the Indian government’s highest defense approval body, the Cabinet Committee on Security headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

When asked about India’s decision in relation to U.S. objections over the purchase, a top Ministry of Defence official said: “We already have communicated our stand on the subject to Washington.” A formal government-to-government contract is expected to be announced during the 19th India-Russia summit on Oct. 5.

“Apparently, the Indian defense establishment is convinced that S-400 Triumf system is ideally suited to fill a critical gap in our existing capabilities. That being the case, there is no reason for India to buckle under the U.S. pressure to roll back procurement of hardware from Russia,” said Amit Cowshish, a former former financial adviser on defense acquisition for the MoD.

U.S. embassy diplomats were unavailable for comment....

...Cowshish noted that India cannot afford to distance itself from Russia, if for no other reason than the fact that it requires Russia’s continued support to maintain and operate in-service equipment, a large proportion of which is of Russian-origin. Russia remains the largest defense supplier to India, but its share of the Indian market has fallen sharply."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/land/2018/0 ... ral-deals/

[marsavian]

There is always the F-16 Block 70 which is probably the favorite as they get to take over production.

[mixelflick]

S-400 vs F-35, interesting dilemma.

They've apparently chosen the S-400. Let's follow the logic.. They have no stealth fighters on the way from Russia, and the F-35 is a long shot. Which means they'll have few aircraft capable of defending against stealth aircraft. So they think the S-400 will protect them against Chinese J-20's/31's. OK, maybe. But now you've closed the door to the F-35 for, well.. probably for a LONG time (if not forever).

At best, this gives India a self-defense capability - and little else. She won't be able to use F-35's to penetrate Pakastani/Chinese airspace, conduct very important ISR missions etc. I think this was rather short sighted. India would do well to turn her attention America for her defense needs, because after this S-400 purchase - Russia isn't going to be able to equip her in a 5th gen world. In that respect, India will more and more like Iran...

[lbk000]

I think in their minds, this is fine. Like China, France, Iran, Russia, etc., India has been a historically "great nation" and the pride ingrained by historical regional dominance is indelible. India's ultimate goal, as a great nation, will be to minimize foreign dependency and therefore influence. To that end, she seeks to develop indigenous capabilities, although India chooses a less brazenly underhanded route than China -- perhaps to their own detriment, because the other great powers obviously will not share India's dearest interests: The Rafale deal was soured when France reneged on allowing them to be built in India, and I believe that India was only being milked for funds for FGFA/PAK-FA. Therefore India sought to find an early out of both MMRCA and FGFA when they realized that they would not be able to acquire their desired technology/experience windfalls. However, India seems confident that acquiring advanced capability is a matter of time.

Some other thoughts:
- S-400 system is also acquired by China. While a double edged sword, the good side to it is that India can gain intelligence into one of the things they'll be dealing with.
- India knows it's currently in a position of strength as a check against China. It is only cultural that India will continue riding the tiger by maintaining friendly distance in this position as long as there is any amount of profit in it -- and there is. I do not believe the S-400 deal would prohibit F-16V deal from going through, as the US has far more to gain from pushing it through than walking away.
- Fantasy, but there is nothing barring India from turning around and defecting materiel wholesale as a bargaining chip if they really are in a pinch to flip West.
- Despite their position of strength, I don't think that India believes there is any hope to acquire the F-35 in the foreseeable future, nor am I sure that they would even want to. The diplomatic and operational gap is far too large, and India, being true to its aspirations of reclaiming its regional prestige, would rather develop its own peer system (HAL AMCA) than what it would regard as kissing the ring of the US.

[popcorn]

The Rafale deal was soured when France reneged on allowing them to be built in India, and I believe that India was only being milked for funds for FGFA/PAK-FA. .

AFAIK the IG was requiring France to offer a warranty on Rafales built in India by Indian partner over who it had no control. So if shoddy workmanship caused by incompetent management and labor was causing problems, Dassault could do little to discipline or fire staff under Indian law. Dassault was wise to step away.

[Corsair1963]

If, the US says no to Turkey for acquiring the S400/F-35. Then how could it with India???

[talkitron]

The Rafale deal is currently a huge political scandal in India. To me, it seems like the average voter will not understand foreign weapon deals and can easily be misled with exaggerated claims about corruption. I have a feeling that high profile fighter jet deals might be off the table for a while as these deals do not win votes in India and many other countries. Here is a recent BBC summary of the scandal.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-45636806

[weasel1962]

Risk of sanctions affect AH-64, C-130, C-17 maintenance. If sanctions are imposed, the most immediate issue would be the loss of the MH-60 deal. The current deals are still small in comparison to the MMRCA/CV3. The threat of sanctions would be a major barrier to cross for future US-India deals. There are too many Russian-Indian acquisitions for India to avoid Russia. If its not S400 today, it would be something else tomorrow.

A waiver is inevitable imho. The targets afterall are still Turkey & China.

[ricnunes]

S-400 vs F-35, interesting dilemma.

They've apparently chosen the S-400. Let's follow the logic.. They have no stealth fighters on the way from Russia, and the F-35 is a long shot. Which means they'll have few aircraft capable of defending against stealth aircraft. So they think the S-400 will protect them against Chinese J-20's/31's. OK, maybe. But now you've closed the door to the F-35 for, well.. probably for a LONG time (if not forever).

At best, this gives India a self-defense capability - and little else. She won't be able to use F-35's to penetrate Pakastani/Chinese airspace, conduct very important ISR missions etc. I think this was rather short sighted. India would do well to turn her attention America for her defense needs, because after this S-400 purchase - Russia isn't going to be able to equip her in a 5th gen world. In that respect, India will more and more like Iran...

On the other hand, if a conflict between India and China came up, India could "rest assured" that it wouldn't be the first time that they would get their "asses kicked" by China

[weasel1962]

Indian logic is different. They see things always taking into account the Pakistanis. The Chinese are unlikely to nuke India but they think the Pakistanis could. S-400 gives them some ABM capability as well as shoot down the JF-17s.

[Corsair1963]

Problem for India is how long can she wait??? Before she finally realizes that China is going to build hundreds of J-20's and J-31's. Which, she could also provide to Pakistan! While, the Indian Air Force has nothing to counter......

[babybat{}.net]

Problem for India is how long can she wait??? Before she finally realizes that China is going to build hundreds of J-20's and J-31's. Which, she could also provide to Pakistan! While, the Indian Air Force has nothing to counter......

j-20 is a machine for the domestic market, and to counter future j-31 there is a "super-30" program. The possible supply of su-35 to Pakistan poses a great threat.

[weasel1962]

The Super 30 is an upgrade of the 20+ year old Su-30MKI that at its heart installs a 1st gen Russian AESA in place of the non-AESA Bars.

The reality is that Pakistan can't really afford anything better than the JF-17 even if the Chinese have already pitched, re-pitched and practically thrown the J-31 (after pitching the J-10) at PAF's doorstep. Same thing happened with the Z-10 helo.

And the Indians know that. That's why IAF procurement plans center around procuring 18 Tejas squadrons. Ironically, this will be another major reason for a CAATSA waiver since all 18 Tejas Squadrons will be propelled by F404/F414 engines imported from the US.

P.s. India's procurement processes are notorious. The MMRCA originated in year 1982 when the IAF bought 40 Mirage 2000s and left the other 110 options open until the M2000 line closed, which then became the 2001 126 plane MMRCA RFP and ended up with 36 Rafales, which hasn't been delivered to date.... still, that's better than the FGFA saga.