India and the F-35?

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Corsair1963

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Unread post12 Oct 2022, 03:51

Corsair1963 wrote:
pigmode wrote:
madrat wrote:I'm uncomfortable with India being dependent on Russia oil and gas.


I'm uncomfortable with India participating in Russian war games.

The F-35 for India may very well be a bone tossed, hopefully with a Dyneema string tied to it, with conditions that are impolitic to discuss for the next 10-12yrs of continued wooing. It will take at least that long before India can be vetted, passed, included.

Can't decide if I trust Turkey more than India, but the fact that the question exists...



We haven't had any issues trusting India. Unless, you know something that we don't??? :?



Still waiting........... :?
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post12 Oct 2022, 04:59

Corsair1963 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:We haven't had any issues trusting India. Unless, you know something that we don't??? :?



Still waiting........... :?


I’ll say it again. Did you forget that 70% of weapon imports in India are from Russia? Not to mention that India has repeatedly abstained from UN resolutions condemning Russia in their war against Ukraine? Or that Indian PM Modi is a nationalist demagogue? Modi is a Hindu nationalist who is ideologically more aligned with Russia than much of the West.

We don’t need F-35s sold everywhere.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post12 Oct 2022, 06:12

disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:We haven't had any issues trusting India. Unless, you know something that we don't??? :?



Still waiting........... :?


I’ll say it again. Did you forget that 70% of weapon imports in India are from Russia? Not to mention that India has repeatedly abstained from UN resolutions condemning Russia in their war against Ukraine? Or that Indian PM Modi is a nationalist demagogue? Modi is a Hindu nationalist who is ideologically more aligned with Russia than much of the West.

We don’t need F-35s sold everywhere.



Do you know of a specific issue with India buying Western Military Hardware??? If, not your above opinion means very little........
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pigmode

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Unread post12 Oct 2022, 15:48

Corsair1963 wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
Still waiting........... :?


I’ll say it again. Did you forget that 70% of weapon imports in India are from Russia? Not to mention that India has repeatedly abstained from UN resolutions condemning Russia in their war against Ukraine? Or that Indian PM Modi is a nationalist demagogue? Modi is a Hindu nationalist who is ideologically more aligned with Russia than much of the West.

We don’t need F-35s sold everywhere.



Do you know of a specific issue with India buying Western Military Hardware??? If, not your above opinion means very little........



The discussion here is the acquisition of the F-35 by India, not "Western Military Hardware". India must among other things, become much more integrated with your "Western Military Hardware", before the F-35 can be put on the table as more than a carrot stick. At this time India is not as politically aligned with the US, to warrant inclusion of such technology. This is a gradual process that can't be fast tracked. As I mentioned above this should probably take up to 10 years, before any real discussions on the matter.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post13 Oct 2022, 00:52

pigmode wrote:

The discussion here is the acquisition of the F-35 by India, not "Western Military Hardware". India must among other things, become much more integrated with your "Western Military Hardware", before the F-35 can be put on the table as more than a carrot stick. At this time India is not as politically aligned with the US, to warrant inclusion of such technology. This is a gradual process that can't be fast tracked. As I mentioned above this should probably take up to 10 years, before any real discussions on the matter.


The discussion here is India trustworthy partner to the US and her Allies. Some are claiming they're not. So, I've simply asked them to support such claims with facts!
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post13 Oct 2022, 01:16

Corsair1963 wrote:
pigmode wrote:

The discussion here is the acquisition of the F-35 by India, not "Western Military Hardware". India must among other things, become much more integrated with your "Western Military Hardware", before the F-35 can be put on the table as more than a carrot stick. At this time India is not as politically aligned with the US, to warrant inclusion of such technology. This is a gradual process that can't be fast tracked. As I mentioned above this should probably take up to 10 years, before any real discussions on the matter.


The discussion here is India trustworthy partner to the US and her Allies. Some are claiming they're not. So, I've simply asked them to support such claims with facts!


Maybe this can give you a clue.

Image

Not to mention pervasive Indian corruption, and how they demand transfer of technology beyond just being an end user, and the fact that they continue to buy oil and weapons from Russia.

But anything to sell more F-35s, right? :roll:
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jessmo112

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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 04:58

No new updates, but it seems like Pakistan may be on track to aquire the T-X.


https://eurasiantimes.com/edited-turkey ... -pakistan/


With no Su-57, and no F-35 on the Horizon India runs the risk of falling behind In the fighter race.

It's very likely that Pakistan will have the J-35 or TFX.
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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 18:57

Corsair1963 wrote:
pigmode wrote:

The discussion here is the acquisition of the F-35 by India, not "Western Military Hardware". India must among other things, become much more integrated with your "Western Military Hardware", before the F-35 can be put on the table as more than a carrot stick. At this time India is not as politically aligned with the US, to warrant inclusion of such technology. This is a gradual process that can't be fast tracked. As I mentioned above this should probably take up to 10 years, before any real discussions on the matter.


The discussion here is India trustworthy partner to the US and her Allies. Some are claiming they're not. So, I've simply asked them to support such claims with facts!


India completed a purchase of S-400 system from Russia and received a one time CAATSA waiver. Considering the purchase of an S-400 system scuppered Turkey's participation in the F-35 program, what would make you think an F-35 sale to India would be recommended by the State dept? Biden admin?

The concerns that led to Turkey's removal from the F-35 program would likely be amplified, as the US and India don't even have a defense alliance.
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daswp

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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 21:21

Corsair1963 wrote:
The discussion here is India trustworthy partner to the US and her Allies. Some are claiming they're not. So, I've simply asked them to support such claims with facts!


India is high on the list of countries stealing Western Technology, everyone talks about China, but India was in 2nd place when I had access to the data.
Here a story from the Business Standard that says India is still #2..

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 092_1.html
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jessmo112

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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 21:21

I think India bet on the wrong horse.
The S-400 means nothing versus modern stealth fighters as we have seen in Syria. Heck they haven't really slowed down Ukraine. Now you have 2 enemies that will soon have the ability to punish you at will.

Here are Indian options:

1. Stay the course and develop thier own stealth platform: This is not recommended you need only to look at the Tejas to understand why.

2. Stand down the S-400 and buy patriot, and F-35:
This is the wisest option to me.

3. Buy Turkey’s stealth drone or stealth fighter:
The Turkish industry seems to have really benefited from connections to western tech. This is the latest offering from Turkey.

4. Try and jump into another joint program with the US, SK, or Europe: Time here is a factor.

https://youtu.be/pZixxELTcCQ

I say they go #2 with #3 as a wise option.
The flanker airfore is quickly becoming a relic of the past

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milosh

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Unread post21 Nov 2022, 22:20

jessmo112 wrote:I think India bet on the wrong horse.
The S-400 means nothing versus modern stealth fighters as we have seen in Syria. Heck they haven't really slowed down Ukraine.

Here are Indian options:

1. Stay the course and develop thier own stealth platform: This is not recommended you need only to look at the Tejas to understand why.

2. Stand down the S-400 and buy patriot, and F-35:
This is the wisest option to me.

3. Buy Turkey’s stealth drone or stealth fighter:
The Turkish industry seems to have really benefited from connections to western tech. This is the latest offering from Turkey.

4. Try and jump into another joint program with the US, SK, or Europe: Time here is a factor.

https://youtu.be/pZixxELTcCQ

I say they go #2 with #3 as a wise option.
The flanker airfore is quickly becoming a relic of the past

.



So you are saying Ukrainian fighters and bombers bombs all over Russia? S-400 is one reason why they are force to fly lower, for example in early phase of war UA Su-27 was downed near Kiev with S-400 battery which was 150km away!

Of course if it fly lower SAMs like S-400 can't score such long hits.

So S-400 is more then enough for Pak AF which still don't have any VLO fighter. J-35 will not be ready soon and China will not be that keen to export it plus it is carrier based fighter so land variant will need additional time for development, I doubt PLAAF of PAK AF will want heavier J-35.

Tejas was huge problem for India but they succeed in solving it, and now it is foundation for next fighter programs.

Tejas now have domestic radar and is testing domestic AESA radar, it would get domestic engine which India is developing with French help, also Tejas have huge % of composites. Also India developed its own AMRAAM like missile.

All those techs would allow India to make VLO fighter without any need to import critical tech.

Turkey can make fuselage and they are good at that but that can do many others. What India is doing is making whole fighter.
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jessmo112

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Unread post22 Nov 2022, 03:02

milosh wrote:
jessmo112 wrote:I think India bet on the wrong horse.
The S-400 means nothing versus modern stealth fighters as we have seen in Syria. Heck they haven't really slowed down Ukraine.

Here are Indian options:

1. Stay the course and develop thier own stealth platform: This is not recommended you need only to look at the Tejas to understand why.

2. Stand down the S-400 and buy patriot, and F-35:
This is the wisest option to me.

3. Buy Turkey’s stealth drone or stealth fighter:
The Turkish industry seems to have really benefited from connections to western tech. This is the latest offering from Turkey.

4. Try and jump into another joint program with the US, SK, or Europe: Time here is a factor.

https://youtu.be/pZixxELTcCQ

I say they go #2 with #3 as a wise option.
The flanker airfore is quickly becoming a relic of the past

.



So you are saying Ukrainian fighters and bombers bombs all over Russia? S-400 is one reason why they are force to fly lower, for example in early phase of war UA Su-27 was downed near Kiev with S-400 battery which was 150km away!

Of course if it fly lower SAMs like S-400 can't score such long hits.

So S-400 is more then enough for Pak AF which still don't have any VLO fighter. J-35 will not be ready soon and China will not be that keen to export it plus it is carrier based fighter so land variant will need additional time for development, I doubt PLAAF of PAK AF will want heavier J-35.

Tejas was huge problem for India but they succeed in solving it, and now it is foundation for next fighter programs.

Tejas now have domestic radar and is testing domestic AESA radar, it would get domestic engine which India is developing with French help, also Tejas have huge % of composites. Also India developed its own AMRAAM like missile.

All those techs would allow India to make VLO fighter without any need to import critical tech.

Turkey can make fuselage and they are good at that but that can do many others. What India is doing is making whole fighter.


Ok you kind of cherry picked my argument to make your own.

1. I was emphasizing that the S-400 has 0 performance versus 5th gen fighters, and a less that stellar performance versus drones.

2. If you read the article attached, you will notice that Pakistan is TFX partner. Turkey has a very aggressive and ambitious program, and they are building a stealth drone and fighter at the same time. Pakistan could definitely have a stealthy drone or fighter by 2030.
Which brings me to my last point.

3. The Indian industrial complex is slow. It's beyond slow its going backwards. Your bragging about Tejas that tech from the 70s, and 80s. Really composites? F-18 equivalent engines? The Tejas looks like a super up 3rd gen fighter. India is waaay behind, and I'm not sure if they know it.
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milosh

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Unread post22 Nov 2022, 08:44

I am not cherry picking I just point out Pak AF is 4gen AF so S400 is problem for it.

Tejas have lot of composites in its weight more then half of weight are composites.

So airframe is very modern.

Indian domestic engine will be based on M88 french engine.

And India do make itd own radars and soon they will make AESA radars.

So you see India do make advanced airframe do make radars and soon will make engine which allow them to make something like TFX or KFX but 100% indian.

Turkey on other hand dont have radar nor engine for tfx. All it have is nice mockup.
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not_kent

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Unread post22 Nov 2022, 13:28

milosh wrote:So you are saying Ukrainian fighters and bombers bombs all over Russia? S-400 is one reason why they are force to fly lower, for example in early phase of war UA Su-27 was downed near Kiev with S-400 battery which was 150km away!

Of course if it fly lower SAMs like S-400 can't score such long hits.

So S-400 is more then enough for Pak AF which still don't have any VLO fighter. J-35 will not be ready soon and China will not be that keen to export it plus it is carrier based fighter so land variant will need additional time for development, I doubt PLAAF of PAK AF will want heavier J-35.

Tejas was huge problem for India but they succeed in solving it, and now it is foundation for next fighter programs.

Tejas now have domestic radar and is testing domestic AESA radar, it would get domestic engine which India is developing with French help, also Tejas have huge % of composites. Also India developed its own AMRAAM like missile.

All those techs would allow India to make VLO fighter without any need to import critical tech.

Turkey can make fuselage and they are good at that but that can do many others. What India is doing is making whole fighter.


"Ukrainian fighters and bombers bombs all over Russia" This ignores actual reality that Ukraine air power is focused on tactical strikes over the battlefield. And also that Ukraine has struck inside Russia successfully.

As far as I know Russian SAMs have not successfully intercepted HIMARS and TOR systems, that were hyped to be able to intercept SBDs and other guided munitions have been destroyed.

It is the total system that is most important, case in point;
As Russia launched its invasion, the U.S. gave Ukrainian forces detailed intelligence about exactly when and where Russian missiles and bombs were intended to strike, prompting Ukraine to move air defenses and aircraft out of harm’s way, current and former U.S. officials told NBC News.

That near real-time intelligence-sharing also paved the way for Ukraine to shoot down a Russian transport plane carrying hundreds of troops in the early days of the war, the officials say, helping repel a Russian assault on a key airport near Kyiv.

Ukraine continues to move air defenses and aircraft nearly every day with the help of American intelligence, which is one reason Russia has not been able to establish air dominance. In some cases, Ukraine moved the targeted air defense systems or planes just in time, the officials said.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Nov 2022, 02:45

milosh wrote:I am not cherry picking I just point out Pak AF is 4gen AF so S400 is problem for it.

Tejas have lot of composites in its weight more then half of weight are composites.

So airframe is very modern.

Indian domestic engine will be based on M88 french engine.

And India do make itd own radars and soon they will make AESA radars.

So you see India do make advanced airframe do make radars and soon will make engine which allow them to make something like TFX or KFX but 100% indian.

Turkey on other hand dont have radar nor engine for tfx. All it have is nice mockup.


So, your saying India is more capable of developing a Stealth Fighter than Turkey???? :|
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