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pron

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Unread post16 Jun 2021, 18:41

Translated with google.
Lockheed Martin's F-35 makes a nice comeback in Bern
About ten days ago, dassault's Rafale was popular, today it is the American stealth jet that seems the best placed. The left is ambushed with an initiative.

The federal council's announcement of the choice of the fighter aircraft is approaching in Bern and the tide seems to have turned. While ten days ago, the Rafale of the French manufacturer Dassaulthad the favors of the coast, the noises of corridors changed in favor of the F-35 of the American manufacturer Lockheed Martin. It is known that Switzerland's order for the planes was the subject of furtive attention on Tuesday by the President of the United States, Joe Biden, during his meeting with the President of the Swiss Confederation, Guy Parmelin, in Geneva. But nothing more has filtered out.

According to some sources, the Federal Council's announcement is expected to take place quickly, most probably on Wednesday 23 June. It would appear that the F-35 would be chosen for cost reasons. Let us remember that there are still two other competitors: the Eurofighter Typhoon of the European Airbus and the F/A-18 Super Hornet of the American Boeing.
https://www.lematin.ch/story/le-f-35-de ... 8343831848

We should know the result one week from now.
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Tiger05

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Unread post16 Jun 2021, 19:52

wil59 wrote:The answer is yes, if the Rafale was chosen, it is because the plane corresponds to their expectations, nothing more. But the f18 super hornet would be a good choice as well since they already have f18's and are already equipped with the infrastructure for it. As far as the F35 is concerned, it is well requested by the Belgians who already regret this choice! The price of the hour of flight which was to be 30% more expensive than the f16 it turns out to be more than double and have various problems, cannot exceed a certain speed for fear of damaging the stealth coating of the plane which is expensive to remake! They say they couldn't go back and that they regret this choice! This I heard from a Belgian state representative that you can find on YouTube I don't have the link anymore I will give it when I find it.


Give us a link for this statement. I am from Belgium and i havent heard anything like this from government officials.
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jakobs

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Unread post16 Jun 2021, 20:06

magitsu wrote:But B-61 integration likely won't be happening to a non-US platform.


Why not? It was allowed earlier on Tornado. Everyone always assume US will not let it be integrated on other planes, but after all they are still allies and it has happened before.

The issues with an all-out Typhoon fleet lies elsewhere IMO (expensive to develop ECR and less credible as delivery platform compared to the F-35).
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XanderCrews

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Unread post16 Jun 2021, 21:00

wil59 wrote: But the f18 super hornet would be a good choice as well since they already have f18's and are already equipped with the infrastructure for it.


This has been a claim with the Super Hornet since its inception, its never actually happened. Theres next to no parts commonality plus the SH is larger, and heavier and the "infrastructure" doesn't translate. We've seen several hornet operators transition to super hornet and they still pay big bucks to get all the extras and set up the aircraft requires. I have no clue how Canada as a hornet operator was going to being paying as much as they did for the interim buy. There was seemingly no translation in infrastructure and their costs projections were 6 times what they thought they would be. And thats after already having the infrastructure?

Theres either little to no commonality or the SH has tons of commonality and still costs a fortune on top of that. I'll leave it to you which is worse.

It is unclear whether the Super Hornet purchase will ever be completed, as Boeing has ignored Canadian government demands to drop the complaint that could see the Trump administration enforce tariffs on Bombardier aircraft being sold in the U.S.

On Tuesday, the U.S. State Department outlined for the first time the extent of the proposed deal and its cost to Canadian taxpayers.

The estimated price tag for the Super Hornet package is US $5.23 billion — or nearly $6.4 billion according to current exchange rates — according to a notice issued by the State Department. The notice of a potential sale is required by U.S. law and does not mean the sale has been concluded, the statement added.

That price goes well beyond the aircraft themselves, which are estimated to cost around US $77 million each; rather, it includes advanced targeting systems, spare parts, initial training and some maintenance, and almost 170 missiles.



Whew! look at all that infrastructure savings!

As far as the F35 is concerned, it is well requested by the Belgians who already regret this choice! The price of the hour of flight which was to be 30% more expensive than the f16 it turns out to be more than double and have various problems,


That's pretty amazing considering they don't even get their first F-35 until 2023.


cannot exceed a certain speed for fear of damaging the stealth coating of the plane which is expensive to remake!


You know how I know you're a rookie who doesn't have any experience in aviation?

All aircraft have speed and other restrictions lest the aircraft be damaged. Surely Rafale is the first airplane that has no limits, and can be flown in excess of all parameters and magically escape damage. Most restriction in aviation exist to not damage the machine. They had to warn F-22 pilots not to overfly the engines because F119s are so powerful they can actually damage the airframe, But a more dramatic and fun way of putting it would be "The F-22 can be torn apart by its own engine" I love this because its dramatic.

I went on a flight in a Bell jetranger 206 and had the pilot cheerfully inform me that if the wind exceeded a certain speed the rotors would bash into the tail if the rotor RPM was low. No dramatic headlines about "Bell helicopter will chop off its own tail whiles starting up in a breeze" though

There should be a whole avaition media industry dedicated to stories like this one:

Image


And for the record the F-35 scorched tail thing has more to do with afterburner duration and the F-35B (not the Belgian version, but this is no time for facts or accuracy) rather than "cannot exceed a certain speed for fear of damaging the stealth coating of the plane" They've taken F-35s to beyond Mach 1.6 and had no issues with the skin.



They say they couldn't go back and that they regret this choice! This I heard from a Belgian state representative that you can find on YouTube I don't have the link anymore I will give it when I find it.


If that has you going, you should see what happened with india and the Rafale. You want to talk about regret and cost overruns? buckle up kids. I've heard swedish politicians complain about the Gripen too, theres always someone who can produce a soundbite. Green party hippy types usually. Both Bernie Sanders and John McCain complained about the cost of the F-35 in the US while making sure to buy them, and equip their states with them. Theater is fun for the masses, but even more fun when they don't realize its theater.

Many countries have no choice, the US is pushing for this, if you want a place in NATO then you have to buy American. Some countries have no choice because they receive money to fund their armies from the US, Israel for example can only buy American or else no more subsidies for the army! This is a fact, there is no point in denying it.


Theres plenty of nations that buy american because its actually decent gear, even when they have other options. I've also seen plenty of buyers remorse when they don't buy American which is the flip side of the coin. and throws this out of wack

I know Aussies that will still give you an earful if you even mention the Mirages they dealt with. Theres a reason they don't play with French toys anymore. Horrific customer service. They hated them absolutely.

Image

Brining up india again, The United states armaments industry for all of its many faults is actually pretty restricted in what it can "over promise" another very helpful "fail safe" is that the law stipulates that the US can't sell its weapons for less than what the US government pays for them. This hurt Boeing in India, where Boeing basically gave India its lowest possible bid, and then watched Dassault lie completely to undercut it. Boeing laughed and walked away, and we got to see the massive cost escalation that came with MRCA when reality intruded and of course Dassault was not going to sell them for a loss and the price "magically" doubled.

American weapon systems also have support, are well tested and vetted and have tremoundous amount of oversight so that the system can't be "gamed" unlike in other countries where you recieve an airplane and its not nearly ready for showtime and you are now the "beta tester"

Thats the issue here you fail to see. The F-35 scorched tail is great meme but one of the nice things about it, as spaz indicates is They actually tested for it and informed people about it. most countries let you find that out on your own :wink:

I understand there are "rules" and I understand there are always "exceptions to the rule" or the "exception that proves it" but the problem here is that you made an assertion that other evidence will find is simply not true. its a bad rule. You can't talk about buyer remorse on F-35 and belgium like its some kind of exception.

As for the other points I made, I lived through the V-22 kid, I've seen it all and you can't bring up "muh scorched tail" and maintain credibility. If you were experienced in this field you would understand that all airplanes have restrictions, and if you have even more REAL experience in this field, you realize that facts like scorched tails on F-35s and "Coffin corners" on Ospreys that "can't autorotate" are basically brought up and over emphasized to sink the aircraft in the public sphere that like YOU Wil59, think this is the first aircraft to ever have a coffin corner (all helicopters have them, always have), and it plays even better because it sounds scary.

You fell for it, while trying to lecture people who not only knew more than you, but could tell that you didn't know anything because again, you fell for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGw3soM07Yw

you got sucked Wil59. And then you repeated it without realizing that in trying to sound smart and well informed you actually exposed how you don't know what you're talking about. Thats the fun thing about these media tropes. its like a giant "idiot check" the second someone repeats uninformed opinion, that only a laymen thinks is important you expose yourself as a laymen. its wonderful. it actually keeps a solid barrier between people who know whats going on and the notion of trade offs, and the riff raff.

Years ago, when F-35B hit IOC with VMFA-121 I cheerfully informed people who thought it was all a farce that not only was it real, but legacy aircraft were becoming so outdated, expensive, and difficult to maintain that even a "half baked" and "verly costly" or "rushed" F-35 would easily exceed them. I even specifically named the F-18 hornet. I would be proven right over the years as the news/media picked up what we were already seeing. We now see the US Navy and USMC in such a hurry to divest them of the Hornets I said were in rapid decline years ago to the point where the navy is actually trading them in for F-16s on land bases, and switched the blue angels out as well. Its not even like I'm some super genius its just that i had seen that before so many times. Another interesting notion of the AV-8B harrier (A "widow Maker" to grab onto the medias dramatic name for it) being a tough and not safest airplane to fly, meant that again even the worst built F-35B, is easier to operate and fix than the nicest AV-8B, while being dramatically safer and more operationally capable.

Image

People like yourself have no measure of whats good or bad or where anything is on the scale. If youre informed the new thing is "bad" then you assume the old is somehow better since none of its faults are mentioned. I noticed that we could lose dozens of sea knights with piles of corpses but only Osprey crashes were ever dramatically reported on in the rare times they happened. This creates the false notion that Ospreys are more dangerous, but statistically they were incredibly safe comparatively. Exponentially safer in fact when one really examines it. in fact its not exactly a leap to figure out that the aircraft with triple redundant controls that's 30 years newer and flies higher and faster with the best pilots at the controls is better than the aged sea knight that has plenty of its own problems.

So to beat a dead horse into glue. IF you read the above magazine and then told me your "thoughts" which are not yours, but that you are parroting from a story written by people who are even less informed than you, I would laugh in your face. and then I would send them a big thank you card for making the suckers so easy to spot.




Image

Skin damage

speaking of F-16
The Belgians who already regret this choice!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkrtxDdaWuM&t=4s

They regret the F-16 too. You know how I know you're new?
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magitsu

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Unread post16 Jun 2021, 22:50

jakobs wrote:
magitsu wrote:But B-61 integration likely won't be happening to a non-US platform.

Why not?

Because integration costs too much time and money compared to the life cycle of Typhoon. The platform is at its mid-life already. The next non-US platform (FCAS/NGF) on the other hand isn't anywhere close for this requirement.

The delivery thing doesn't really matter since it's token anyway. Nobody in their right mind would actually intend to gravity nuke. The French ASMP-A cruise missile type nuke at least makes some sense (though still sketchy how one would actually expect to just tac nuke without getting strat nuked back).
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Unread post16 Jun 2021, 23:28

spazsinbad wrote:https://preview.redd.it/ag8jt1b22sl11.jpgwidth=960&auto=webp&s=a9f6c17cbd19087584d343de5aecc57a229be361 [cannot see image above]
Image
'zanda' said: "...I know Aussies that will still give you an earful if you even mention the Mirages they dealt with. Theres a reason they don't play with French toys anymore. Horrific customer service. They hated them absolutely...."

It would appear REGRET is creeping in to the French Sub 'to be' purchase by Oz is also problematic - we never learn. :doh:



https://i.redd.it/ag8jt1b22sl11.jpg

here is the original :wink: sorry for the bad link, M8.
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Unread post16 Jun 2021, 23:36

Yes the old RAAF (CRABS to me) had class. Their BAD [moon rising - Creedence Clearwater Revival] as seen not above....

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=moon [NUMBA WUN DEF] "To MOON"

Creedence Clearwater Revival - Bad Moon Rising (Official Lyric Video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUQiUFZ5RDw

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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 00:04

And speaking about the regret of buying French and Aussies lets not forget about the Tiger attack helicopter which the Aussies regretted so much to buy to the point that despite being almost brand new they will be replaced very soon! And guess by what??
By American Apache (AH-64E) attack helicopters!

And speaking about other languages there's this following saying in Portuguese:
"O peixe morre pela boca"
Which means:
"The fish dies by its mouth"

Applied to the above I guess that one could say:
"The Frenchman (will69) dies by its fingers (on the keyboard)"
:mrgreen:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 00:07

Tiger05 wrote:
wil59 wrote:The answer is yes, if the Rafale was chosen, it is because the plane corresponds to their expectations, nothing more. But the f18 super hornet would be a good choice as well since they already have f18's and are already equipped with the infrastructure for it. As far as the F35 is concerned, it is well requested by the Belgians who already regret this choice! The price of the hour of flight which was to be 30% more expensive than the f16 it turns out to be more than double and have various problems, cannot exceed a certain speed for fear of damaging the stealth coating of the plane which is expensive to remake! They say they couldn't go back and that they regret this choice! This I heard from a Belgian state representative that you can find on YouTube I don't have the link anymore I will give it when I find it.


Give us a link for this statement. I am from Belgium and i havent heard anything like this from government officials.


And with that wil69 "crashes and burns"!! :devil:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 01:24

ricnunes wrote:
And speaking about the regret of buying French and Aussies lets not forget about the Tiger attack helicopter which the Aussies regretted so much to buy to the point that despite being almost brand new they will be replaced very soon! And guess by what??
By American Apache (AH-64E) attack helicopters!



Not to mention the MRH90's are currently grounded, again!!!!!
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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 01:44

jakobs wrote:
magitsu wrote:But B-61 integration likely won't be happening to a non-US platform.


Why not? It was allowed earlier on Tornado. Everyone always assume US will not let it be integrated on other planes, but after all they are still allies and it has happened before.


The problem is not that it wouldn't be allowed.
The Germans and the rest of the EF group have no interest to share EF's secrets with the Americans, which would be necessary to integrate the B61.
Also it would most likely be more expensive, considering the legacy Hornet was nuke capable and everything EF is expensive generally.
Plus there would be the issue of having nucular EFs in Germany. There is a treaty that forbids the stationing of nucular delivery systems in the former GDR. What would the Luftwaffe do? Close Laage air base? Mark all nuclear capable EFs with dayglo triangles? Violate the treaty?
To sum up, not worth it, buy something American.

jakobs wrote:The issues with an all-out Typhoon fleet lies elsewhere IMO (expensive to develop ECR and less credible as delivery platform compared to the F-35).


F-35's credibility as delivery platform is of no relevance as F-35 is out. The issues are, besides mentioned above:
1. Germany prefers not having a single type fleet.
2. Germany has a NATO commitment for escort jammer aircraft, which no other aircraft other than the Growler can realistically meet in time. And yes, EF ECR would probably be very expensive to develop besides being to late to replace the worn out Tornados.
3. SH brings a lot of weapons options to the table, including GBU-24 and anti-shipping capabilites, which the Germans are considering to bring back.

A decision regarding the Tornado replacement will be the new governments job, there are elections in september...
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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 03:39

Sorry, neither the Super Hornet nor Typhoon are viable in the Nuclear Strike Role post-2030. Even with EW assets like the Growler.
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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 03:54

beepa wrote:
ricnunes wrote:And speaking about the regret of buying French and Aussies lets not forget about the Tiger attack helicopter which the Aussies regretted so much to buy to the point that despite being almost brand new they will be replaced very soon! And guess by what??
By American Apache (AH-64E) attack helicopters!

Not to mention the MRH90's are currently grounded, again!!!!!

Defence spends $37m on private helicopter hire after troubles with its own $15bn chopper program 27 May 2021
Department concedes fault found in Taipan chopper could have led to ‘catastrophic consequences’
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... labor-says
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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 09:30

ricnunes wrote:
Tiger05 wrote:
wil59 wrote:The answer is yes, if the Rafale was chosen, it is because the plane corresponds to their expectations, nothing more. But the f18 super hornet would be a good choice as well since they already have f18's and are already equipped with the infrastructure for it. As far as the F35 is concerned, it is well requested by the Belgians who already regret this choice! The price of the hour of flight which was to be 30% more expensive than the f16 it turns out to be more than double and have various problems, cannot exceed a certain speed for fear of damaging the stealth coating of the plane which is expensive to remake! They say they couldn't go back and that they regret this choice! This I heard from a Belgian state representative that you can find on YouTube I don't have the link anymore I will give it when I find it.


Give us a link for this statement. I am from Belgium and i havent heard anything like this from government officials.


And with that wil69 "crashes and burns"!! :devil:

https://youtu.be/FN1BFO5vduc
https://youtu.be/iHQun2DK46Y

:doh: Save your condescending comment and find out beforehand!
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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 09:51

wil59 wrote:https://youtu.be/FN1BFO5vduc
https://youtu.be/iHQun2DK46Y
:doh: Save your condescending comment and find out beforehand!

Bruh, opposition Marxist party rep Raoul Hedebouw (iHQun..., aka the 2nd video, from 2018) certainly isn't a government rep.
That party seemed to have 2 reps / 3.72% share. The video can be entertaining or annoying depending on the viewer, but he's just not relevant in the matter. Basically just a typical minor party rabble rouser who skirts around mildly relevant matters (e.g. the commonly acknowledged short transition of the top brass into consulting) and tries to faze people just by talking loudly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Belg ... l_election

1st video (FN1B... from 2021) seems to have again PTB-PVDA rep (Steven De Vuyst, chairman of now a medium size opposition party) testifying about their party being the first and only that's always called to cancel the F-35 contract.

So yes, (parts of) the opposition does indeed object.
What's new? It's like everywhere, loud, brief and very ineffective.

tl;dr Didn't see anything like "They say they couldn't go back and that they regret this choice!" mentioned, and clearly not government representatives, instead basic parliamentary opposition politics.
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