Finnish DefMin Interest in F-35s NOT Gripens

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hornetfinn

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 08:20

Corsair1963 wrote:
madrat wrote:My gut said the competition was merely to negotiate a good price.



Yes, and to at least give the appearance that it was an open competition.... :wink:


I think that all the competing companies would be screaming if they didn't think it was an open competition. Finnish competition definitely costs all the competitors quite a lot of money as it's one of the most in-depth international fighter acquisition competitions ever.

I'd also say that the point of competitions generally is to find out which competitor has the best price-performance ratio. Of course the country that holds the competition wants to get the best price and performance they can possibly get. And that's where competitions are pretty good as they tend to make competitors do their best to win the race.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 08:42

magitsu wrote:Basically it's just a product of the culture and expected step further from the previous DX competition. Though they are still quite different because at that time F-18 somehow appeared and slightly unexpectedly won. This time there shouldn't be room for similar result. The likeness is more about how for example again Gripen is a prototype seeking for a co-developer etc.


Hornet was originally left out from DX competition as it was thought to be too expensive to buy and operate. It was easily the biggest aircraft with two engines after all. So no requests were made to McDonnell Douglas and US Navy at the time. Luckily they were very determined to get into Finnish competition and managed to convince Finnish generals and politicians to allow F(/A)-18 to enter the competition. In the end it won the performance evaluation convincingly with radar and weapons system being the strongest points for it. And it was the second cheapest choice too... So the price-performance ratio was the best.

Now I see F-35 being in similar spot. It likely won't be the cheapest option, but close to it anyway. Performance-wise it should be easily the best, likely with far bigger advantages than what Hornet had in early 1990s. Naturally now it's quite a bit more complicated as it's not just aircraft vs aircraft comparison.
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magitsu

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 12:07

Early indications of who are going to reply: presser invitations for Friday are starting to appear in the press inboxes. At least Saab is signaling for a big one.
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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 16:48

With respect to the Growler/Boeing offer...

I was under the impression that although not a dedicated jamming aircraft, the F-35s E/W capabilities were either on par or exceed that of the Growler. Is that an accurate statement?

If it isn't, I'm assuming that's so due to the next generation jammer the EA-18G carries? If so, I'm curious as to whether it would fit in the F-35A/C's internal weapons bay. Looks too big. Let's say it could fit though... could it still function, or does it need to be carried externally to work?
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EA-18G Next Gen Jammer pod under wing.jpg
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magitsu

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 17:21

Pretty damn impossible question to answer. It might be reasonable to assume that F-35 can only hoover information from the most amount of Bands (2,3,4) its antennas/EW system features, and putting out EW/AEA is more limited in scope. Though it clearly has the range benefits from stealth. Cooperative EW through MADL is certainly something that will be explored.

How well F-35 manages Mid-Band vs NGJ-MB would be a slightly more restricted question. But still pure guesses since public info is shallow.

We can also note that NGJ is the Navy way of doing things. While the AF has admitted they've dropped the ball in this regard, their way of doing it might not entail anything significant (NGJ level project) to F-35.
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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 21:26

'mixelflick' & others may find this 56 page PDF about NGJ [specifically 6 pages] useful: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=23043&p=451944&hilit=Generation+Jammer+Next#p451944 56 page PDF (8.4Mb) download/file.php?id=35014
"...On NGJ, the RAT [Ram Air Turbine needed to generate sufficient power which the aircraft alone cannot provide] will be internally mounted in the mid-section because active arrays cannot be mechanically steered and therefore require a clear field of view and need to be mounted in the pod’s forward and aft sections. Opting for a ducted ram air turbine capable of generating 100kW (or more) of power requires a sophisticated design...."
&
"...But has the use of the new inlet and internal ram had an impact on the overall size of the NGJ pod? “More weight than size,” replied Capt Green, “so we have encouraged our contractors to reduce the weight of the ram air turbine and the generator behind it to the greatest degree possible.”..."

download/file.php?id=35015&t=1

Image
Last edited by spazsinbad on 26 Apr 2021, 21:42, edited 1 time in total.
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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spazsinbad

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 21:38

From above the 6 page PDF extract ONLY about NGJ attached from AIR International Magazine April 2013 Vol.84 No.4:
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NGJ ONLY Air International Apr 2013 pp6.pdf
(992.66 KiB) Downloaded 50 times
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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magitsu

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Unread post27 Apr 2021, 17:03

All five are going to make a final bid.
Finland requested bids from five fighter manufacturers, of which Swedish Gripen and multinational Eurofighter Typhoon manufacturers have already announced that they will announce their bids on Thursday and Friday.

HS also asked the French Dassault Rafale and the American Super Hornet and F-35 separately.

Both American manufacturers confirmed that the offer will be submitted. The French will officially announce their decision no earlier than Wednesday, but according to HS, Dassault will also make an offer.

The consortium behind Eurofighter will hold a press conference on Thursday morning, which will be streamed via Zoom.

British Ambassador Tom Dodd, British Defense Procurement Minister Jeremy Quin and Director Andrea Thompson from Bae Systems will speak at the event. In addition, questions can be put to Mike Wigston, Commander of the British Air Force.

Gripen maker Saab will hold a virtual press conference on Friday morning. The event will tell us how many fighter the final offer will include.

Saab also promises to provide details of its offer of industrial co-operation as well as a mysterious “performance that we have not mentioned before in this context”.

Saab's CEO Micael Johansson and Swedish Air Force Commander Carl-Johan Edstöm will also be present at the event.

Edström intends to explain in more detail the significance of Sweden's recent supplementary budget from the perspective of the Swedish Air Force and Finnish-Swedish military cooperation.

The American arms and aviation companies Boeing (Super Hornet) and Lockheed Martin (F-35) don't intend to hold separate briefings related to their bids.

Admittedly, for some reason, the Pentagon's announcements [DSCA's last Oct] lacked important radar missiles used in air combat. Their fate will be determined later.

https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000007944984.html

Cheers! I wonder what the Saab's alluded mysterious performance that they haven't mentioned in this context is.
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magitsu

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Unread post29 Apr 2021, 10:12

Details of the Eurofighter submission: https://www.baesystems.com/en-fi/articl ... or-finland
https://airrecognition.com/index.php/ne ... r-jet.html

She said the 80 work packages included in the bid included technology transfer on mission data generation and electronic warfare, as well as extensive maintenance, repair and overhaul capability.


Tomorrow Saab. Next wed Dassault at the earliest. Boeing and LM won't be doing a specific presser related to their BAFO.

Apparently they aren't allowed to state the number of airframes. edit: this was actually clarified to be not true by the MoD. They are allowed.
https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000007948115.html
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Unread post29 Apr 2021, 11:44

Final Quotations for HX Fighter Programme Received
Finnish Defence Forces Logistics Command
https://puolustusvoimat.fi/en/-/final-q ... e-received
https://www.defmin.fi/en/topical/press_ ... s#ae569a6b
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hornetfinn

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Unread post29 Apr 2021, 12:06

magitsu wrote:Cheers! I wonder what the Saab's alluded mysterious performance that they haven't mentioned in this context is.


I too really wondered what that was about. Maybe offering that GaN AESA radar Saab has been developing? Naturally it would need some serious development still as I doubt it's anywhere near ready as there has been no customer for it yet. Another could be some weapons integration that they have not yet offered.
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Unread post29 Apr 2021, 16:27

Boeing offered 14 Growlers and 50 E Super Hornets.
https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11906884
https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000007949610.html

One hell of an offer for $10.9 B... just a moment ago everyone was supposedly struggling to get to 64. No biggie for Boeing since they maxed their DSCA allowance of 14 EA-18G.
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Unread post30 Apr 2021, 06:08

magitsu wrote:Boeing offered 14 Growlers and 50 E Super Hornets.
https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11906884
https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000007949610.html

One hell of an offer for $10.9 B... just a moment ago everyone was supposedly struggling to get to 64. No biggie for Boeing since they maxed their DSCA allowance of 14 EA-18G.


Yes, that was quite interesting info. I think it highlights what kind of operating environment is envisioned and what kind of performances are needed. Growler is best suited for ISR and EW/EA missions supporting other platforms. So a lot of emphasis is clearly put on those capabilities. Not that surprising really, but still quite heavy on Growlers. No wonder Saab has included all their EW/EA/ISR systems they could. Interesting to see what ther Final proposal will be.

Another interesting thing is that there are no regular two-seaters (F-models) at all.
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Unread post30 Apr 2021, 08:51

Saab offered 64 Gripen E one-seaters and 2 Globaleye AEW&C planes.

Lockheed Martin has chosen not to disclose their specific number.
The company's press release does not mention the number of fighters offered. In a permit notification to the US Congress last autumn, the maximum number of F-35A sold to Finland has been recorded at 64.

Scott Davis, who is leading the F-35 campaign in Finland, confirmed to STT that Lockheed Martin has decided not to tell the exact number of machines. When asked, he refused to specify whether the number might begin at six.

Instead, Davis said of the two new types of weapons that were included in the offer after the marketing authorization announcement. Along with the F-35, Finland will also be offered the radar-seeking medium-range AIM-120 Amraam air combat missile and the Joint Strike Missile (JSM) missile manufactured by the Norwegian Kongsberg against land and sea targets.
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Unread post30 Apr 2021, 09:10

Live press from Saab here: https://saab-seminar.creo.se/210430/saa ... in_finland

A recorded session will soon come at the same place they said in the end.
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