Finnish DefMin Interest in F-35s NOT Gripens

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magitsu

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Unread post30 Apr 2021, 10:43

Alluded mystery capability: trio of terrain navigation, odometric navigation and image map navigation. Presented as a way how to deal with gps jamming.

Hmm... at least Rafale has had terrain following for ages. So it's probably terrain + image map covered already.

i find it hard to consider this as a game changer.

Btw, take a note of the Swedish AF commander's brass balls:
- In Sweden, we have made a strategic decision not to develop the stealth capabilities of our fighters. Instead, we rely on very high-quality electronic warfare systems for fighters, Edström said.

- The reason is that we believe that this line will carry us further into the future.

:|
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hornetfinn

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Unread post30 Apr 2021, 11:44

Yeah, not that much of a game changer. Maybe they never heard of LANTIRN pod? Of course they must have much improved version of that capability, but still it's not totally new. Most systems don't have image based updates for navigation but I think F-35 does have as one main function for EO DAS is said to be day/night navigation. EO DAS based navigation system should be far superior as it has constant 360 degree coverage and can use many landmarks at the same time (thus having far superior accuracy). This could be further improved with EOTS laser measurements (or with APG-81) if needed.
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pron

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Unread post30 Apr 2021, 12:06

magitsu wrote:Alluded mystery capability: trio of terrain navigation, odometric navigation and image map navigation. Presented as a way how to deal with gps jamming.

Hmm... at least Rafale has had terrain following for ages. So it's probably terrain + image map covered already.

i find it hard to consider this as a game changer.

Btw, take a note of the Swedish AF commander's brass balls:
- In Sweden, we have made a strategic decision not to develop the stealth capabilities of our fighters. Instead, we rely on very high-quality electronic warfare systems for fighters, Edström said.

- The reason is that we believe that this line will carry us further into the future.

:|

Yea, load of bollocks from the brass. :D
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hornetfinn

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Unread post30 Apr 2021, 12:12

magitsu wrote:Btw, take a note of the Swedish AF commander's brass balls:
- In Sweden, we have made a strategic decision not to develop the stealth capabilities of our fighters. Instead, we rely on very high-quality electronic warfare systems for fighters, Edström said.

- The reason is that we believe that this line will carry us further into the future.

:|


LOL. I've also made a strategic decision not to buy Bugatti Chiron... :mrgreen:

Basically it'd be far beyond the capabilities of Saab and Sweden to develop an actual stealth fighter. It's very expensive and only the countries with biggest defence spending has done so to this date. Of course Sweden and Saab are participating in the FCAS program and I see that the only way for European 5th gen fighter as no European country can do it alone.
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hythelday

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Unread post30 Apr 2021, 17:02

pron wrote:
magitsu wrote:Alluded mystery capability: trio of terrain navigation, odometric navigation and image map navigation. Presented as a way how to deal with gps jamming.

Hmm... at least Rafale has had terrain following for ages. So it's probably terrain + image map covered already.

i find it hard to consider this as a game changer.

Btw, take a note of the Swedish AF commander's brass balls:
- In Sweden, we have made a strategic decision not to develop the stealth capabilities of our fighters. Instead, we rely on very high-quality electronic warfare systems for fighters, Edström said.

- The reason is that we believe that this line will carry us further into the future.

:|

Yea, load of bollocks from the brass. :D


SAAB talking about their ships (an actual quote from their website):
"It is in the realm of stealth that Visby-class corvette really comes to the fore. Designed in accordance with Saab’s stealth philosophy, taking an integrated design approach to signature reduction. Visby-class corvette leads the world in naval stealth reduction across the full signature spectrum, including radar, infrared, acoustic and magnetic design. Saab has more than 75 years’ of experience in R&D focused on naval stealth reduction."

SAAB talking about fighters:
"Physical stealth is made obsolete by advances in electronics! Only blasting EM waves in every direction and can we truly achieve invisiblity!"
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ricnunes

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Unread post30 Apr 2021, 19:37

magitsu wrote:Alluded mystery capability: trio of terrain navigation, odometric navigation and image map navigation. Presented as a way how to deal with gps jamming.

Hmm... at least Rafale has had terrain following for ages. So it's probably terrain + image map covered already.

i find it hard to consider this as a game changer.

Btw, take a note of the Swedish AF commander's brass balls:
- In Sweden, we have made a strategic decision not to develop the stealth capabilities of our fighters. Instead, we rely on very high-quality electronic warfare systems for fighters, Edström said.

- The reason is that we believe that this line will carry us further into the future.

:|


Typical from Saab:
- Implementing yesterday's technology and claim it being 'game-changing' and/or 'groundbreaking new'.
:roll:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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ricnunes

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Unread post30 Apr 2021, 19:41

hornetfinn wrote:LOL. I've also made a strategic decision not to buy Bugatti Chiron... :mrgreen:


LOL :lmao:

hornetfinn wrote:Of course Sweden and Saab are participating in the FCAS program and I see that the only way for European 5th gen fighter as no European country can do it alone.


If I'm not mistaken Sweden and Saab are participating in the Tempest program and not in the FCAS program, eh?
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post30 Apr 2021, 20:04

Not much info in this FINNY LM PR non-exercise BOFO! ["extremely successful : sensational"]
F-35 Best and Final Offer Submitted to Finnish Government
30 Apr 2021 LM PR

"FORT WORTH, Texas, April 30, 2021 – The U.S. government and Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) submitted an F-35 best and final offer (BAFO) on April 29, 2021, to the Finnish government in support of its competition to replace its current fighter fleet.

The F-35 offering is a total package that includes F-35A aircraft and a sustainment solution tailored to meet Finnish security of supply requirements to support all operational needs if in a closed border scenario. The BAFO also includes many first-of-a-kind opportunities for Finnish industry to work directly on F-35 production and sustainment.

“The F-35 will provide Finnish industries high technology job opportunities that no other competitor can offer,” said Bridget Lauderdale, F-35 Program vice president and general manager. “The production work will continue for more than 20 years, and the F-35 sustainment work will continue into the 2050s. Not only will Finland support its own F-35s, but it will directly support the global fleet of F-35s through the production of major components.”

Through indirect industrial participation projects outside of F-35 production, Lockheed Martin will also build partnerships with Finnish companies and academic institutions that offer opportunities focused on developing and advancing security collaborations.

With stealth technology, supersonic speed, advanced sensors, weapons capacity and increased range, the F-35 is the most advanced, survivable and connected aircraft in the world. It is also the most affordable solution for the Finnish Air Force’s future fighter fleet as the only 5th Generation fighter at the cost of 4th Generation aircraft.

To date, the F-35 has been selected by 13 nations and operates from 27 bases worldwide, with nine nations operating F-35s on their home soil. More than 630 F-35s are in service today, with more than 1,300 pilots and 10,380 maintainers trained on the aircraft...."

Source: https://www.f35.com/f35/news-and-featur ... nland.html
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post30 Apr 2021, 20:23

Saab’s final and best offer presentation.

https://saab-seminar.creo.se/210430/saa ... -6eITFdZLw
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element1loop

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Unread post01 May 2021, 06:39

hornetfinn wrote:Yeah, not that much of a game changer. Maybe they never heard of LANTIRN pod? Of course they must have much improved version of that capability, but still it's not totally new. Most systems don't have image based updates for navigation but I think F-35 does have as one main function for EO DAS is said to be day/night navigation. EO DAS based navigation system should be far superior as it has constant 360 degree coverage and can use many landmarks at the same time (thus having far superior accuracy). This could be further improved with EOTS laser measurements (or with APG-81) if needed.


Magnetic declination plus precision topo and altitude from SAR gets you precision nav as well.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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magitsu

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Unread post02 May 2021, 20:10

Some tidbits from this article: http://www.lentoposti.fi/uutiset/saab_a ... orituskyky

Saab's LADM is actually SPEAR EW, except with Saab's contents. So Spear housing, Saab content and integration to Gripen. It also carries at least enough explosives to self-destruct the payload.

There's also some further details about the three-way navigation backup for gps denied/spoofed/non-availability.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post03 May 2021, 06:58

Thanks again magitsu!

Interesting thing said about GPS jamming is that it affects most when flying low and they said that in many mission types low level flying is used to avoid detection. Now this is to be expected but clearly LM can use this as a counterargument for F-35. They don't need to use low altitudes because they can hide in plain sight. Pretty much all military conflicts have alos shown that low level flight over enemy territory is extremely dangerous even when enemy IADS is rendered almost blind and inoperable.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post03 May 2021, 09:26

ricnunes wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:Of course Sweden and Saab are participating in the FCAS program and I see that the only way for European 5th gen fighter as no European country can do it alone.


If I'm not mistaken Sweden and Saab are participating in the Tempest program and not in the FCAS program, eh?


Yeah, that's correct and yet both are correct... :) What's confusing is that both programs are referred to as FCAS program...

https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press-rel ... combat-air

Saab is to create a new FCAS centre in the United Kingdom as a hub for our participation in the FCAS (Future Combat Air Systems) programme.


I think Tempest is the name given by the companies themselves and FCAS is name originally (in 2012) given by UK MoD. France, Germany and Spain gave their next gen fighter program the same English name FCAS for some odd reason.
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magitsu

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Unread post03 May 2021, 12:21

Further info about the F-35 offer:

http://www.lentoposti.fi/uutiset/suomel ... orituskyky

According to Lockheed Martin, the final offer includes many opportunities for the Finnish defense industry directly related to the manufacture and maintenance of the F-35 that have not been offered before. It is about manufacturing larger components for the needs of Finland and other F-35 customers, which increase the know-how of Finnish industry in handling new materials. These cooperation projects are defined as lasting 20 years.

Finland's security of supply requirements have also been taken into account in a situation where Finland's borders have been closed due to exceptional circumstances. Service and maintenance operations will be offered in Finland in the form of extensive component repair expertise for the next 40 years or until Finland uses F-35 fighter jets. However, it is not possible to repair all components in Finland, but Lockheed Martin offers sufficient spare parts availability in the form of strategic storage for crisis situations.


Finnish Fastems already part of the F-35 production chain at Fort Worth. They've also provided flexible manufacturing system (FMS) for automated production of components for BAE in the UK for Typhoon and F-35 production. https://www.fastems.com/case/bae-systems-samlesbury/
Lockheed Martin already has suppliers in Finland, as Fastems, a manufacturer of automation systems, signed an agreement in December 2020 to supply automated AutoSLC laser cleaning systems to the F-35 production line in Forth Worth.

This robotic cleaning system is used in wing production to clean surfaces. The Finnish solution reduces the workload by up to 88 hours per unit and, for its part, reduces the production costs of the fighter.

This agreement is a continuation of the further cooperation between Fastems and the American manufacturer that began in 2012. At the time, it delivered a solution to the production line that would speed up the production of the front body of the F-35 by up to 26 hours.
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ricnunes

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Unread post03 May 2021, 12:31

hornetfinn wrote:Yeah, that's correct and yet both are correct... :) What's confusing is that both programs are referred to as FCAS program...

https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press-rel ... combat-air

Saab is to create a new FCAS centre in the United Kingdom as a hub for our participation in the FCAS (Future Combat Air Systems) programme.


I think Tempest is the name given by the companies themselves and FCAS is name originally (in 2012) given by UK MoD. France, Germany and Spain gave their next gen fighter program the same English name FCAS for some odd reason.


Actually, I didn't know about that (that the Tempest program is also called FCAS)! Thanks for the heads up!

Yeah, it seems that nowadays there's a major lack of imagination by companies/organizations when coming up with acronyms. NGAD seems to be another example of this...
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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