Finnish DefMin Interest in F-35s NOT Gripens

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
  • Author
  • Message
Online

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 790
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post31 Mar 2021, 16:35

"I have invited Finland to join the ECRS Mk2 radar programme, bringing Finnish expertise to its future development for the benefit of both our countries." - Jeremy Quin MP, UK Minister for Defence Procurement,
@DefenceES
https://twitter.com/BAES_Finland/status ... 0885384201

@RollsRoyce to put an #EJ200 production line in #Finland as part of #HXhanke bid
https://twitter.com/securitysplat/statu ... 9455114241

So the BAE offer is EJ200 production line, assembly of all Typhoons, ECRS mk 2 radar and SPEAR. Plus invitation to Tempest. Nothing surprising as they need to offer all they've got to have a chance and are certainly looking for payers for whatever they plan to be doing.
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 6986
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post31 Mar 2021, 17:51

magitsu wrote:Apparently Saab has trialed additive manufacturing with 3d printing a nylon patch (pic at the link as it's seen in the aircraft skin) to represent battle repairs. AM is bound to be a big chunk of the HX industrial partnership whoever wins.

https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press-rel ... ge-repairs



Saab: Wow that F-35 sure does have expensive skin! Look at our cool new 3d printed skin part on this Gripen!

Public: Well then can't the F-35 also make 3D skin in the future, and make it more affordable?

Saab: This interview is over
Choose Crews
Online

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 790
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post31 Mar 2021, 19:19

BAE sums up todays IR (you know, Global Britain :mrgreen: )/HX press brief:
https://www.baesystems.com/en-fi/articl ... -programme
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 6986
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post31 Mar 2021, 19:55

magitsu wrote:BAE sums up todays IR (you know, Global Britain :mrgreen: )/HX press brief:
https://www.baesystems.com/en-fi/articl ... -programme



is it a bit of a surprise to see them pushing this hard this late?
Choose Crews
Online

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 790
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post31 Mar 2021, 21:27

XanderCrews wrote:is it a bit of a surprise to see them pushing this hard this late?


Maybe they are doing the same thing as Saab? Making an effort which is required to justify the government back home to pick up the bill after "fair try" to export and spread the costs around fails.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 25734
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post31 Mar 2021, 22:28

I like the last sentence: https://www.baesystems.com/en-fi/articl ... -programme
"...“This transfer will result in a combined workload of approximately 1.5 million man hours over 40 years.”"
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Online

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 790
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post07 Apr 2021, 20:06

https://corporalfrisk.com/2021/04/07/st ... ig-jammer/

Scott acknowledges that podded solutions are easier to tailor for a wide range of threats, but while he won’t disclose the closer specifications of what the AN/APG-81 can do as a jammer, there are some things he can tell:

All things that can kill you […] is within our jamming range.


That includes both hostile aircraft as well as missiles, or in general anything that can give a fire-control quality radar track.

**
[Eielson AFB] was a plus up, adding two more squadrons of fighters […] The logistics footprint of the F-35 is actually less than that of the F-16



!!!
Here's an interesting description of the 30 day ALIS thing:
The rumoured 30 days limit to offline use is also just a rumour, with nothing more dramatic happening than day one falling out of the aircraft’s memory on day 31 if it hasn’t been able to upload the data in between.
Online

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 790
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post08 Apr 2021, 20:59

SvD sources: Some changes coming to Swedish Gripen programme in order to bring plans more in line with proposal to Finland. Possible decison on Thursday ahead of spring fiscal policy bill 2021.

https://twitter.com/GripenNews/status/1 ... 9131482119

Sweden promises to co-develop and acquire the same extra things that Finland would require. Likely a JASSM equivalent among the most notable things.
Offline
User avatar

doge

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 703
  • Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 16:07

Unread post10 Apr 2021, 17:29

magitsu wrote:https://corporalfrisk.com/2021/04/07/stealth-dispersed-operations-and-a-big-jammer/
Scott acknowledges that podded solutions are easier to tailor for a wide range of threats, but while he won’t disclose the closer specifications of what the AN/APG-81 can do as a jammer, there are some things he can tell:
All things that can kill you […] is within our jamming range.

That includes both hostile aircraft as well as missiles, or in general anything that can give a fire-control quality radar track.
**
[Eielson AFB] was a plus up, adding two more squadrons of fighters […] The logistics footprint of the F-35 is actually less than that of the F-16


!!!
Here's an interesting description of the 30 day ALIS thing:
The rumoured 30 days limit to offline use is also just a rumour, with nothing more dramatic happening than day one falling out of the aircraft’s memory on day 31 if it hasn’t been able to upload the data in between.

Nice Post by magitsu ! :applause: The F-35's Powerful Jamming/EW.
and.
Myths of Kill Switch have been destroyed. 8) (MythBusters.)
Online

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 790
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post21 Apr 2021, 13:44

The previous MoD Jussi Niinistö attributes Growler appearing in the HX competition to James Mattis.

Direct quotes from him:
"Mattis was well acquainted with Finland's needs, and he is to be thanked for the fact that Growler's release was the first for us to succeed after Australia."
"Growler is a groundbreaking addition to Boeing's offering. You could even say that without it, the Super Hornet would be out of the HX race."

https://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/uutiset/ ... f799ac4486

Defense Committee Chairman Ilkka Kanerva opines:
“Growler is a trump card. It undeniably adds significant value to Boeing's offer.”

However, this should not be interpreted as meaning that Kanerva or the Defense Committee would be betting on Boeing anyway.

The previous Minister of Defense Jussi Niinistö is out of the national politics already (small city mayor and from a deadend splinter party), but the parliamentary defense committee chair Kanerva yields considerable political power.
Still I'd categorize this as a curiosity. Maybe Mattis was important, but it's probably ultimately meaningless. But SH/G being in the competition clearly isn't. It's very possible that SH alone wouldn't be competitive or plausible in the long term.
Online

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 790
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post25 Apr 2021, 09:56

It would be a surprise if not all the fighter candidates made it to the performance evaluation, says program director Lauri Puranen.

The assessment of military performance consists of two parts: performance in 2025 and 2030, and the potential for development of the system until 2060.

Competitors will be allowed to divulge something about the fighters and weapons at the end of the week once the final bids have been made (Friday 30th BAFO deadline). The HX project, on the other hand, keeps quiet, focuses on evaluation, and is wary of the corona.

According to Puranen, the results of the evaluation phase following the receipt of the final bids will not be made public. It is therefore not heard, for example, if one of the competitors gets dropped before the stage where performance is assessed and compared.

The same practice will continue until the final decision is made. The mutual order of the losing candidates is not meant to be divulged.

Instead, the superiority of the option chosen at the end of the year will be justified, but to what extent?

- Honestly, we do not yet know exactly how much we can open the results of the evaluation to the public. Of course, political leadership will continue to receive all the information it needs to support its decision-making. The state of mind is that the people must also justify why this was the case, Puranen says.

https://www.suomenmaa.fi/uutiset/embarg ... puranen-2/

It's interesting to consider to what extent the 2025 and 2030 matter. Some are certainly more ready today and their proper package (especially FOC 2027 Gripen E, but also Block 4 F-35, ECRS mk 2 Radar for Typhoon) is ready only in 2030.
So would Rafale benefit from the 2025 part? How about SH and Growler (NGJ clearly not fully operational in 2025)?
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 7350
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post26 Apr 2021, 00:22

The F-35 is going to win.....Does anyone seriously doubt that??? :|
Offline

madrat

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2956
  • Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 03:12

Unread post26 Apr 2021, 01:24

My gut said the competition was merely to negotiate a good price.
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 7350
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post26 Apr 2021, 01:40

madrat wrote:My gut said the competition was merely to negotiate a good price.



Yes, and to at least give the appearance that it was an open competition.... :wink:
Online

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 790
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post26 Apr 2021, 08:17

Getting a good price has been pretty much the most admitted reason from the project runners. It's been a high priority to get everyone to the performance evaluation from the start. Partly it might be because there could be some reluctance in having to disqualify someone and cause loss of face. For example Gripen wasn't booted out like it was in Switzerland. But if there's a too glaring issue which the manufacturer didn't comply with on purpose there could be some value in leaving someone out. It would teach some humiility. For now some hobbyists have just pointed out that General Dynamics did this last time with the F-16 where it failed to satisfy all technical requirements (only Hornet and MIrage did) and also had unsatisfactory industrial participation. Likely there won't be simiar arrogance to be found this time.

Behind that there's value in getting to see the best of the best on offer. For example Growler is probably still something that hasn't been looked into in depth by most western air forces. They probably know what it offers after operating with one, but the domestic politics just won't allow most that could afford it to get it.

Growler to GlobalEye highlights how the competition has been used to gather best practices how to achieve the desired performance without locking into multirole fighters like in the fighter acquisitions usually. Though it's not completely unique because for example Switzerland's Air 2030 is combined with a medium range air defense (Patriot/Meads) purchase.

From the domestic politics perspective it's been very thorough way to answer just about every possible excuse that could be used to stall the eventual award. There's no way anybody can convincingly claim that the alternatives haven't been studied.

Basically it's just a product of the culture and expected step further from the previous DX competition. Though they are still quite different because at that time F-18 somehow appeared and slightly unexpectedly won. This time there shouldn't be room for similar result. The likeness is more about how for example again Gripen is a prototype seeking for a co-developer etc.
Last edited by magitsu on 26 Apr 2021, 08:23, edited 1 time in total.
PreviousNext

Return to Program and politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: optimist and 55 guests