Finnish DefMin Interest in F-35s NOT Gripens

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doge

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Unread post17 Feb 2022, 21:28


From Finland MOD Official. My favorite part. 8)
Air Force 10.12.2021

Military Capability
The F-35 system’s capability was best suited for the Finnish operating environment and HX requirements. The comprehensive system and aircraft’s capabilities in combat, reconnaissance and survival are unsurpassed. The F-35 came first in the assessment or shared the top score in all mission areas and achieved the highest total score. The proposed F-35 package will meet the defined tasks with sufficient efficacy in respect to the requirements of the future operating environment. The quantity of aircraft and weaponry included in the quotation had an impact in the result. The Finnish F-35 fleet can achieve operational capability within the scheduled timeframe.
The F-35 solution will produce a significant addition to the entire defence system and enhance preventive capability of defence. The F-35A is capable of initiating action in counter-air operations as well as generating and sharing the necessary situational awareness and target data, enabling the F-35 to best support land and maritime operations. The F-35 multi-domain effectiveness across air, land and sea received the highest rating in the assessment. The stealth and other unique features, such as sensors and networks, support the F-35’s survival in combat. The F-35 multi-role fighter has the highest internal fuel capacity and all sensors incorporated negating the need for an external targeting system or fuel tank.
The F-35 system’s technological solution is sustainable and its future growth potential the best of the offered solutions. The development has been guaranteed for the entire life cycle until the 2060s.

Does that mean that the F-35 had the Longest Range of the candidates ? :devil: (Devil's Question)
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spazsinbad

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Unread post20 Feb 2022, 03:13

SAAB B/S has baffled my brains for far too long so I just ignore it, however the B/S seems to have baffled SAAB brains.
Saab boss awaits Canadian decision: says ‘politics’ tipped HX fighter contest
Craig Hoyl 16 Feb 2022

"Saab’s chief executive remains disappointed but pragmatic following the Gripen E’s December 2021 defeat in Finland’s HX fighter contest, & is hopeful of success when a two-way competition concludes in Canada later this year...." [no sub]

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/sa ... 32.article
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos
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Unread post20 Feb 2022, 12:26

spazsinbad wrote:SAAB B/S has baffled my brains for far too long so I just ignore it, however the B/S seems to have baffled SAAB brains.

Bold claims from an outfit that was DQ'd in Switzerland, which ran only 6 months ahead of the Finnish competition. If one were to start looking for political tipping, it could be easier to find when asking why didn't the same lack of progress also apply in Finland.

We also have knowledge from the HX external auditors that in a few areas some unnamed contestants, but not the winning F-35, received lenient appraisals, but they weren't significant enough to affect the outcome.
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Unread post23 Feb 2022, 01:42

Another baffling news website has done it again - PLEASE USE an EDITOR/PROFreada wot KNOWS wot is happening - TAH.
"...The Ukraine crisis has strengthened Finland’s transatlantic relations with the United States. In an agreement reached late last year, Helsinki agreed to buy six F-35 Lightning II Strike Fighters with its maintenance and support package by 2030 from the United States. It also will purchase update long-range guided rocket systems from Washington to improve air and ground defense...." https://news.usni.org/2022/02/22/finlan ... ister-says
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos
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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Feb 2022, 02:17

Sounds like more and more Finland is moving towards joining NATO. Thanks to Mr. Putin..........
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steve2267

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Unread post23 Feb 2022, 03:07

Corsair1963 wrote:Sounds like more and more Finland is moving towards joining NATO. Thanks to Mr. Putin..........


I don't necessarily agree. Our Finnish members could speak better to this topic. IMO, Finland being compatble / interoperable with NATO makes good practical sense.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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hkultala

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Unread post23 Feb 2022, 04:14

steve2267 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Sounds like more and more Finland is moving towards joining NATO. Thanks to Mr. Putin..........


I don't necessarily agree. Our Finnish members could speak better to this topic. IMO, Finland being compatble / interoperable with NATO makes good practical sense.


No, not having the protection of the fifth articla of NATO makes zero sense.

Before, it used to be something like 25% (practically the smart and knowledgeable people in Finland) wanted to join NATO, about 35% had no strong opinion on either direction, and about 40% opposed (with stupid reasoning).

Now there are LOTS of people saying that they have changed their mind and previously were against NATO but now want to join.
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Unread post23 Feb 2022, 05:17

hkultala wrote:No, not having the protection of the fifth articla of NATO makes zero sense.

Before, it used to be something like 25% (practically the smart and knowledgeable people in Finland) wanted to join NATO, about 35% had no strong opinion on either direction, and about 40% opposed (with stupid reasoning).

Now there are LOTS of people saying that they have changed their mind and previously were against NATO but now want to join.


Thank you for sharing the "sense" or opinion of the people of Finland. I stand corrected, and heartened.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post23 Feb 2022, 05:35

steve2267 wrote:
hkultala wrote:No, not having the protection of the fifth articla of NATO makes zero sense.

Before, it used to be something like 25% (practically the smart and knowledgeable people in Finland) wanted to join NATO, about 35% had no strong opinion on either direction, and about 40% opposed (with stupid reasoning).

Now there are LOTS of people saying that they have changed their mind and previously were against NATO but now want to join.


Thank you for sharing the "sense" or opinion of the people of Finland. I stand corrected, and heartened.


Well, we still have the problem that our current prime minister (Sanna Marin) belongs to the stupid nato-opposing group.
so we might need a change of prime minister first :(

She has been doing lots of other mistakes continuously, but because she is a young woman and gives out nice interviews in womens magazines, people are unfortunately overlooking all her mistakes and incompetence.

Her personal mistakes:

* She got caught making the government to pay her familys food bills that the government should not pay. And when she got caught , she was even then claiming the bills are much smaller than what they really were.
* She was exposed to covid and the message telling she was exposed did not reach her because she had gone to a night club and left his work phone (which should ALWAYS be with her) at home. And then she said she did not know what are the rules for exposed people even though she herself was making those rules.
* Last summer, very shortly before more corona restrictions were put in place in Finland, she was having a big party just for fun for random musicians and culture people in his work home (owned by the government). But then the official meetings with the opposition party leaders were cancelled "because of corona restrictions".
* When finland did not have enough face masks in 2020, she gave order for the government branch which was for organizing emergency grain storages to get some masks somewhere (even though they had never been meant for such puchases and no competence for organizing such puchaces). When they did not succeed in acquiring enough of those masks, she just blaimed the manager of this government branch for the failures.
* She has always been accusing others from her own mistakes.
* When there has been negative corona news, like more restrictions, somebody else has told them to public. When there has been positive new, she has been the one to tell those. She has been multiple times telling how "Covid is now over, we can go back to normal life". And then few months later another politician (Krista Kiuru) has told the bad news, that it's not over, and new restrictions are put in place. It's never Sanna who tells the bad news. She just wants good publicity and to be the "good and friendly minister", she's just a total narcist.

Typically finnish politicians have resigned for single of such mistake which she has made multiple. But she instead always just blaims others and other members of the political parties in the government do not force her to resign because they fear that that might lead to new elections where they would lose badly.

If somebody in Finland says "Bile-sanna" ("Party Sanna") everybody knows he/she meas out prime minister.

And generally, about the government policy of her government, not so much personal mistakes:

* The economic policy has been totally reckless, giving government lots money to all kinds of unnecessary organizations at the situation when government is taking lots of debt, and refusing to make any economic reforms that would be needed to reduce the deficit.
* Finland was really bad at doing practically anything to stop covid at finnish borders. For very long time they was no covid tests at airports, no mandatory quarantines, not even any guidance about covid etc.
Because finns like to keep their distance and are quite obedient, and we had tight restritions in spring 2022, the original wuhan-covid-19 still practically disappeared from finland in summer 2020. But it then came back with foreign students and migrant workers in autumn 2021 because borders were wide open. Then in summer 2021 the same thing with delta. Covid numbers very small beginning of summer 2021, and then there was the football games at russia. Everybody knew there is lots of Delta in russia, but lots of people came back from Russia without any tests or quarantines. Some were tested though, but when their test capacity ran out in the border, they just let the remaining popele through without testing or guarantening them.
* Reckless immigration policy, People who are coming to Finland without permission and are not given refugee status because they don't deserve it, are still mostly allowed to stay in Finland. This is destroying the whole refugee system.
* Over-strict ecologic policies. The government does not understand that if a factory (which already was obeying quite strict environmental laws and did not pollute much) is closed in finland and new one is opened in china (which does not have those same environemntal laws) to do the same products, globally emissions increase, not decrease. Finland is also large and sparsely populated country, and public transport only works in cities. Many finns really need a car for their everyday life. Taxes for purchasing and owning car and for the gas has always been insanely high in Finland, but now the government is putting even sticter fuel quality directives to the gas station companies that increase their costs considerably and is leading to even higher fuel costs (which have already increased due to raw oil price increases).
* There is this new health services reorganization. The reason for that is officially to save on costs, but all the calculations show that it will considerably increase healthcare cost due to much more management. Whole whole new level of regional management as created due to the healthcare system reorganization. LOTS of new middle-level politiocal positions were made. All paid by the taxpayers.

The real reason for this healthcare reform is that the centrist party (which is fading) wants to have the middle-level political position for it's members in the countryside regional governments and is willing to accept anything if thet just get this through.

So after out last parlamental elections, where overall right-wing parties got more votes and seats than left-wing parties, but the biggest party was the left wing social democrat party, the centrist party agreed to join the leftist government (which would not have been made otherwise, there would have been right-wing government instead) in a condition that they get this healtcore reform through. So the left-wing parties agreed. Centrist party got their regional government, leftists (Social democrats + left alliance + greens) got the reckless left-wing government (with the centrists as doormat) and the citizens of Finland got lots of extra debt and no economical reforms.

I'm very happy that they still did not mess up the HX project (the F-18 replacement/F-35 purchase), even though they messed almost everything else.


According to finnish constitution, the government has to be backed by majority of the parlament. As we have lots of political parties, this means that there are always multiple parties in the government. But here is the "way of the country" which says that the party which had most seats in the parlament election starts the negociations for forming the new government. This is not stated in the constitution. Nothing in the constitution states that the biggest party has to be in the government. And there is practically also a "way of the country" that the biggest party is always in the government, (because enough of the other parties don't dare to say "no, we will form a government without you") even when the biggest party only has only like 25% of the seats of the parlament and there is only one-seat difference to the second-biggest party.
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Unread post23 Feb 2022, 08:16

hkultala wrote:
steve2267 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Sounds like more and more Finland is moving towards joining NATO. Thanks to Mr. Putin..........


I don't necessarily agree. Our Finnish members could speak better to this topic. IMO, Finland being compatble / interoperable with NATO makes good practical sense.


No, not having the protection of the fifth articla of NATO makes zero sense.

Before, it used to be something like 25% (practically the smart and knowledgeable people in Finland) wanted to join NATO, about 35% had no strong opinion on either direction, and about 40% opposed (with stupid reasoning).

Now there are LOTS of people saying that they have changed their mind and previously were against NATO but now want to join.



Of course depending on how the current Ukraine/Russian Crisis plays out. That could move further in favor of joining NATO.
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Unread post23 Feb 2022, 08:36

spazsinbad wrote:Another baffling news website has done it again - PLEASE USE an EDITOR/PROFreada wot KNOWS wot is happening - TAH.
"...The Ukraine crisis has strengthened Finland’s transatlantic relations with the United States. In an agreement reached late last year, Helsinki agreed to buy six F-35 Lightning II Strike Fighters with its maintenance and support package by 2030 from the United States. It also will purchase update long-range guided rocket systems from Washington to improve air and ground defense...." https://news.usni.org/2022/02/22/finlan ... ister-says

Yeah, USNI bungled quite a bit. These purchases have nothing to do with Ukraine. The number is 64. Though yes, also GMLRS ER is purchased. But that's related to previous GMLRS Unitary / AW purchase and the original 2000s intent to buy ATACMS. Which weren't purchased but JASSM instead.

MLRS was originally bought as a replacement capability due to losing the land mines (Ottawa treaty). Though there was/is older lighter RM-21 Grad based rocket artillery capability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RM-70_mul ... t_launcher
They probably thought that it would be easier to get MLRS submunitions than it proved. Finland (or US) didn't sign the cluster bomb treaty, but US gov and western business still followed that and just kept some of the old stock.

Many in Finland consider that most of the drawbacks related to Nato-membership already apply to Finland, but the biggest theoretical advantage (5th article) isn't available due to sitting on the fence.
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Unread post05 Mar 2022, 12:46

Related acquisition pipeline:
https://maavoimat.fi/en/-/high-altitude ... o-progress

David's Sling (Rafael) with Stunner missile or BARAK MX (IAI) with LRAD ER missile to be chosen in early 2023.

These didn't make the cut: Land Ceptor with CAMM ER (MBDA), IRIS-T SLM (Diehl), AMRAAM-ER (Kongsberg).
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Unread post09 Mar 2022, 16:53

Finnish flag was raised at Fort Worth, coinciding with Defense Minister's visit. He's going to Eglin as well.
https://twitter.com/sepppett/status/1501379903429779456
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Unread post17 Mar 2022, 10:18

F-35As to replace Hornets [PDF of article below]
Apr 2022 AirForces Monthly

"...Finland will purchase 64 F-35A Block 4 with F135 engines. It was also announced that the air-to-ground/surface weapons for the F-35A will be bought by 2031. Requirement was that FOC should be achieved by 2030. Does this have an effect on the Hornet fleet retirement? The Finnish Air Force has said the Hornet air-to-ground/surface weapons JDAM, AGM-154G and AGM-158 JASSM will be used to achieve F-35A FOC 2030 and new weapons will be purchased/ integrated later.

One aspect which might affect the Hornet retirement schedule is F-35A IOC. Finland has purchased the F-35A Block 4 with the current F135 engine, but the USA's latest General Accounting Office (GAO) report on January 14, 2022, stated that development of Block 4 was delayed and at the earliest it would not be available in the US until 2026, or even later. Also, Block 4 requires more electricity and cooling and without a new engine not all Block 4 capabilities will be possible. To achieve IOC in 2026. the FAF will have to use Block 3F aircraft.

The first F-35A deliveries are planned for 2025, when training is expected to commence in the US and the first aircraft will arrive in the country around 2026. This means Finland will receive the Block 3F aircraft. which need to be upgraded when Block 4 becomes available...."

Source: AirForces Monthly April 2022 #409
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Unread post17 Mar 2022, 15:32

Hmmmm....

Block 4 is both new hardware (primarily avionics) and new software. Another article recently posted hereabouts mentioned the need for propulsive capacity growth, primarily cooling capacity. Block 4 could be powered by the present F135, but without improvements, the engine will be run harder / hotter and it will wear out faster, but it could be done. Either P&W EEP will come online in this time frame, or AETP motors will be developed. (It appears that the only advantage of AETP over F135 EEP may be slightly better fuel economy, both deliver +10% thrust.)

Other posts in recent months have cited articles that state that Block 4 avionics hardware is scheduled for introduction into the fleet even if the software isn't there yet. So me thinks the GOA is blowing smoke to a degree. Other articles have stated Finnish aircraft, as delivered, will be fully Block 4 capable. Not sure where the disconnect is, but if I had to guess it is scheduled delivery of software, not hardware.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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