Finnish DefMin Interest in F-35s NOT Gripens

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madrat

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Unread post03 May 2021, 12:36

They all originate on a similar basis, so it makes sense they share underlying program names. There's a hundred ways to skin a cat so I highly doubt any end up with the same results.
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ricnunes

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Unread post03 May 2021, 12:43

madrat wrote:They all originate on a similar basis, so it makes sense they share underlying program names. There's a hundred ways to skin a cat so I highly doubt any end up with the same results.


They may be similar but they are not the same. In a form and speaking about these new two European programs they are even more different than the Rafale was from the Typhoon where the later started with the French participation which later abandoned the (Eurofighter) program to develop its own fighter program (Rafale) and back then none of these two programs had the same name, did they?

Anyway, it's not hard and with a very small dose of imagination to come up with different acronyms.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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magitsu

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Unread post03 May 2021, 12:44

Yeah it's FCAS->Tempest and FCAS->NGF.

A joint programme between Germany, France and Spain, the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) will deliver a next-generation fighter (NGF), which will operate as part of a manned-unmanned teaming formation with attack and surveillance drones, known as ‘remote carriers’.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/fea ... hter-jets/

edit: mix-up clarified
Last edited by magitsu on 03 May 2021, 15:55, edited 1 time in total.
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magitsu

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Unread post03 May 2021, 13:07

Apparently Saab's declaration of >20% of package value to weapons already turned out to be slightly misunderstood.

The confusion regarding the value of #Saab #Gripen's weapons package for #HXhanke has cleared. Saab confirms that it is over 15% of the value of the whole offer. In other words, we are looking at (very) approximately 1.35 Bn EUR instead of the 1.8 Bn EUR of the original estimate.

https://twitter.com/CorporalFrisk/statu ... 3454905346
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ricnunes

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Unread post03 May 2021, 15:37

magitsu wrote:Yeah it's NGAD->Tempest and NGAD->NGF.

A joint programme between Germany, France and Spain, the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) will deliver a next-generation fighter (NGF), which will operate as part of a manned-unmanned teaming formation with attack and surveillance drones, known as ‘remote carriers’.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/fea ... hter-jets/


Actually when I previously mentioned NGAD, I was also referring to two (2) US programs which have the same name/acronym, the Navy NGAD (also known as F/A-XX) and the USAF NGAD.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post03 May 2021, 22:30

FINNISH will FINISH fiter comp by finish of twenty-twenty-one WUN HOPES: F-35 Wins 2021 Fighter Comp? <sigh>
Finnish officials begin sifting through final HX fighter offers
03 May 2021 Sebastian Sprenger

"...Four vendors released statements by deadline day, each praising their wares (Dassault tends to keep quiet about such things). They promised industrial-participation packages of varying degrees that would boost job growth in Finland.

Sweden’s entry of the Gripen fighter is notable from a regional and political perspective. The country’s top officials have publicly assisted Saab in making the case for extending the Sweden-Finland alliance into a de facto, singular air force of Gripens that commanders could interchangeably use across both nations to ward off an invasion.

Saab also has thrown into its offer two GlobalEye early warning aircraft in addition to its proposed fleet of 64 Gripens, company officials said during an online briefing last week.

Anna Wieslander, a Stockholm-based defense analyst with the Atlantic Council, said Sweden’s political promise of linking neighboring air forces through a common aircraft is likely to be taken seriously by the Finnish. “If you look at the way the operational defense cooperation has evolved since 2015, it’s interesting to see where that could lead,” Wieslander said. The two countries’ territories effectively amount to “one operational space” in the eyes of defense planners, she added.

Saab is somewhat under the gun to produce a major sale in Europe after the company lost out on a similar program in Switzerland, where a contract of more than $6 billion is up for grabs.... [read the others - thot SAAAB Saad interesting]

...The Finnish Defence Ministry expects the fighter procurement to take 10-15 years to complete. “The final decision on the new fighters will be made by the end of 2021,” according to a ministry website dedicated to the HX program."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... er-offers/
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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herciv

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Unread post03 May 2021, 22:51

I think even Dassault is in the race in Finland if whe can believed this information :
France to sell 30 Rafale fighter jets to Egypt - investigative website​
https://www.reuters.com/article/france- ... SP6N2LZ004

PARIS, May 3 (Reuters) - France has agreed to sell Egypt 30 Rafale fighter jets in a deal worth 3.75 billion euros ($4.52 billion), investigative website Disclose reported on Monday, saying a deal could be sealed as early as Tuesday.
A French government source said discussions with Egypt on a Rafale deal were at a very advanced stage and announcements could be made very soon.

https://disclose.ngo/fr/article/la-fran ... -a-legypte

According to our information, the agreement concerns three contracts. The first is for the purchase of thirty Rafale fighter jets from Dassault for 3.75 billion euros. The other two contracts are worth 200 million euros for the missile manufacturer MBDA and the equipment manufacturer Safran Electronics & Defense. Total value of the deal: €3.95 billion.
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go4long

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Unread post03 May 2021, 23:25

I've always thought that Dassault was one of the top candidates in Finland. I think it's honestly most likely to be either F-35 or Rafale, with the Saab in third most likely in my opinion.

I put Switzerland around the same...but with the Super Hornet in third.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post04 May 2021, 00:05

go4long wrote:I've always thought that Dassault was one of the top candidates in Finland. I think it's honestly most likely to be either F-35 or Rafale, with the Saab in third most likely in my opinion.

I put Switzerland around the same...but with the Super Hornet in third.



I would put it down to the F-35 or Gripen. With the former being the most likely winner.


Actually, I would be shocked if the F-35 didn't win..... :wink:


IMHO
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Corsair1963

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Unread post04 May 2021, 00:11

herciv wrote:I think even Dassault is in the race in Finland if whe can believed this information :
France to sell 30 Rafale fighter jets to Egypt - investigative website​
https://www.reuters.com/article/france- ... SP6N2LZ004

PARIS, May 3 (Reuters) - France has agreed to sell Egypt 30 Rafale fighter jets in a deal worth 3.75 billion euros ($4.52 billion), investigative website Disclose reported on Monday, saying a deal could be sealed as early as Tuesday.
A French government source said discussions with Egypt on a Rafale deal were at a very advanced stage and announcements could be made very soon.

https://disclose.ngo/fr/article/la-fran ... -a-legypte

According to our information, the agreement concerns three contracts. The first is for the purchase of thirty Rafale fighter jets from Dassault for 3.75 billion euros. The other two contracts are worth 200 million euros for the missile manufacturer MBDA and the equipment manufacturer Safran Electronics & Defense. Total value of the deal: €3.95 billion.



Egypt doesn't have access to the F-35. So, the Rafale in the next best non-5th Generation Fighter. So, this should hardly be a surprise...........
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hornetfinn

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Unread post04 May 2021, 05:38

herciv wrote:I think even Dassault is in the race in Finland if whe can believed this information :
France to sell 30 Rafale fighter jets to Egypt - investigative website​
https://www.reuters.com/article/france- ... SP6N2LZ004

PARIS, May 3 (Reuters) - France has agreed to sell Egypt 30 Rafale fighter jets in a deal worth 3.75 billion euros ($4.52 billion), investigative website Disclose reported on Monday, saying a deal could be sealed as early as Tuesday.
A French government source said discussions with Egypt on a Rafale deal were at a very advanced stage and announcements could be made very soon.

https://disclose.ngo/fr/article/la-fran ... -a-legypte

According to our information, the agreement concerns three contracts. The first is for the purchase of thirty Rafale fighter jets from Dassault for 3.75 billion euros. The other two contracts are worth 200 million euros for the missile manufacturer MBDA and the equipment manufacturer Safran Electronics & Defense. Total value of the deal: €3.95 billion.


Very interesting, thank you herciv!

Yes, Dassault is definitely in the race and from that article it seems likely they can also squeese their offer within Finnish framework with competitive amount of aircraft. Of course Egypt already operates Rafale, so it's cheaper to get those 30 aircraft. But 60 Rafales would then cost about 7.5 billion euros and weapons probably about a billion. That leaves about 1.5 billion for all the other stuff which sounds possible. It'd be really interesting what kind of armament package Dassault has put together. However we likely won't hear much about that unless Rafale wins the whole thing.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post04 May 2021, 06:01

Corsair1963 wrote:
go4long wrote:I've always thought that Dassault was one of the top candidates in Finland. I think it's honestly most likely to be either F-35 or Rafale, with the Saab in third most likely in my opinion.

I put Switzerland around the same...but with the Super Hornet in third.



I would put it down to the F-35 or Gripen. With the former being the most likely winner.


Actually, I would be shocked if the F-35 didn't win..... :wink:


IMHO


I think Finnish competition is highly interesting as it doesn't directly pit aircraft vs aircraft against each other like most other competitions do but rather overall packages are compared. Competitors seem to have taken advantage of that like Boeing offering a large proportion of Growlers and Saab offering AEW&C aircraft and decoy missiles for example. LM trusts F-35 unique capabilities and includes JSM in their offer for VLO deep strike and anti-ship missions. Too bad Eurofighter and Dassault have not said any real details about their offerings.

I would put my money on F-35, but I give both Saab and Boeing best chances of the rest. I actually think 50 Super Hornets with 14 Growlers would be preferred over 64 Gripen + 2 GlobalEyes as only 2 AEW&C aircraft seems awefully vulnerable capability. I'd like to have GlobalEye capability for 24/7 surveillance during peacetime and increased political and military tensions. There would need to be at least 4 AEW&C aircraft for that. However that capability would eat into number of fighter aircraft. F-35 could give most of that capability (and probably more due to stealth giving ability to get closer) and not be vulnerable to S-400s or long range AAMs even in full combat situations. I think SH and Growler would also give pretty good SA and ISR capabilities by themselves.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post04 May 2021, 06:33

The Finnish Military seem to very much want the F-35. As it's the only option to face down the Russians. Which, they share a long boarder with............So, honestly I don't think the best deal is first on their list???


At least that is my take on the subject..... :wink:


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steve2267

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Unread post04 May 2021, 06:40

The comments / article above regarding Swedish <-> Finnish inter-Air-Force cooperation is potentially compelling. If Finland procures two GlobalEyes, and Sweden has 2-4 (I'm going with four as Sweden is roughly twice as large population/economy-wise), then that gives six GlobalEyes for a "joint Air Force," so now it's not such a problem.

The counter argument should be obvious, Finland to Sweden: "Yes, you provide the GlobalEyes for early warning. We're going to get the Ferrari. Our Lightnings will double if not triple your Gripen effectiveness, and keep the Russians off balance whilst you provide the early warning, also backed up by random, roving patrols of invisible Panthers."
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post04 May 2021, 07:03

Corsair1963 wrote:The Finnish Military seem to very much want the F-35. As it's the only option to face down the Russians. Which, they share a long boarder with............So, honestly I don't think the best deal is first on their list???


Sure I agree with that. Finnish geography definitely favours 5th gen capabilities. But I think how this competition is constructed makes this competition even somewhat intresting. If it was just Super Hornet vs. F-35, it's not much of a contest really. But SH+Growler vs F-35 is different, although I strongly favour F-35 even then. Most interesting would be to know how the rest stack up.
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