Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
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marsavian

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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 02:01

Did you bother to download the attachment in the last post I linked, it's at the very bottom after the F-18 sheet ? Just search for that Swedish sentence on that page you attached and you will find it on indicated page 48 (actual page 50) like I said. It seems you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink !

Jaktflygplan

JAS 39 vilket har skrov där signaturdämpande åtgärder har vidtagits. Radarmålarea 0,1 m2


Do you want me to attach it again ?
Last edited by marsavian on 10 Feb 2020, 02:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 02:08

marsavian wrote:Did you bother to download the attachment in the last post I linked, it's at the very bottom after the F-18 sheet ? Just search for that Swedish sentence on that page you attached and you will find it on page 48 like I said. It seems you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink !

It's up to you to post it. I'm on the verge on calling in a MOD, this smells like trolling

this is linkomart's post where he said it didn't say it
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=11311&start=2055
optimist wrote:
linkomart wrote:The real documet is here
https://www.foi.se/rest-api/report/FOI-R--0338--SE
I’ve just read it and it doesn’t claim that the 39 has that RCS.
It’s a report about..... operational analysis simulations (sort of) and the model used in the simulation has that RCS.
(Page 50) Hovever the auhtor claims that the data comes from ”Radarmålareor är erfarenhetsvärden från FOI Försvarsanalys personal. ”(p54)
Witch translates to something like ”RCS values (that you can use in public*)are from experieced personells guesses”
*is my interpretation
Sorry for the text, my pad tries to change every word in to swedish, I might have missed a few...
My 5 cent


Thank you for your effort, you just saved another 20 pages of it being the RCS of a pixie.
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 02:11

What linkomart has stated is no different to what I did, your comprehension is as bad as your friend's, re-read what I said carefully again below.

I posted the original, see attached file, and the question I posed then as I do now is why would the Swedish defense department pay an external contractor good money to do studies on the Gripen NG/E and *not* feed them an RCS figure to which they were at least working to ? The expensive study would be meaningless with a BS number fed in.


The following statement in the document on page 50 (Indicated page 48)
FOI-R--0338--SE.pdf
(5.63 MiB) Downloaded 131 times

Jaktflygplan

JAS 39 vilket har skrov där signaturdämpande åtgärder har vidtagits. Radarmålarea 0,1 m2


Translates to

Hunting Aircraft

JAS 39 which has a hull where signature dampening measures have been taken. Radar measuring area 0.1 m2
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 02:37

marsavian wrote:What linkomart has stated is no different to what I did, your comprehension is as bad as your friend's, re-read what I said carefully again below.

I posted the original, see attached file, and the question I posed then as I do now is why would the Swedish defense department pay an external contractor good money to do studies on the Gripen NG/E and *not* feed them an RCS figure to which they were at least working to ? The expensive study would be meaningless with a BS number fed in.


The statement in the document

Jaktflygplan

JAS 39 vilket har skrov där signaturdämpande åtgärder har vidtagits. Radarmålarea 0,1 m2


Translates to

Hunting Aircraft

JAS 39 which has a hull where signature dampening measures have been taken. Radar measuring area 0.1 m2

I'm pretty sure it said "I’ve just read it and it doesn’t claim that the 39 has that RCS." do you have a copy of the original?
It's a model of LO design. features that aren't on and wasn't about the 39...I recall the Z shape protrusion was one feature. They were estimates, even the model they were looking at was never tested.
As I said, I've had enough of this nonsense.

This was the model talked about, looks just like a gripen, doesn't it
Image
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 02:53

I have attached the original pdf to the post you just replied to and it does not mention anything what you just stated about the type of LO reductions or that future model in the document. The document was about networked warfare.

Jaktflygplan
JAS 39 vilket har skrov där signaturdämpande åtgärder har vidtagits. Radarmålarea 0,1 m2.
Aktionsradie 500 km. Fart 1000 km/h. Fpl kan starta 10 min efter order.
Gripen kan utrustas med en mängd olika robotar och missiler. Man kan även hänga på en extra
tank på undersidan för att öka räckvidden. Gripen har alltid en grund beväpning oavsett uppdrag.
Den består av en AIM-9 Sidewinder i varje vingspets och en automatkanon från Tyskland av
märket Mauser-Werke typ Akan m/85.
Kulorna har en kaliber av 27 mm. Sedan kan Gripen utrustas beroende av vilket uppdrag den ska utföra. ***** olika robotar och missiler inklusive en bombkapsel kan bäras av JAS 39. I typfallet har jaktflygplanet 4 radarjaktrobotar Rb2000 och 2 st AIM9 samt en motmedelskapsel


which google translates to

Hunting Aircraft

JAS 39, which has a hull where signature dampening measures have been taken. Radar measuring area 0.1 m2.

Action radius 500 km. Speed ​​1000 km / h. Fpl can start 10 minutes after order.

The gripen can be equipped with a variety of robots and missiles. You can also hang on an extra tank on the underside to increase the range. Gripen always has a basic armor regardless of mission. It consists of an AIM-9 Sidewinder in each wing tip and an automatic cannon from Germany brand Mauser-Werke type Akan w / 85.
The balls have a caliber of 27 mm.

Then the Gripen can be equipped depending on which mission it is to perform. Six different robots and missiles including a bomb canister can be carried by JAS 39
fighter aircraft 4 radar fighter robots Rb2000 and 2 AIM9 as well as a countermeasure capsule


The above is a description of a standard Gripen.

What you displayed is a proposed stealth follow on to Gripen and came years after that document and that model did fly in 2009.

https://robotpig.net/aerospace-news/saa ... gram-_1827

SAAB is investigating the design of the next generation fighter that will someday eventually replace the Gripen. The photo above is from a small research program that SAAB is conduction with the University of Linköping. The program entitled Generic Future Fighter Aircraft aims to develop a cost-effective and quick way to design and manufacture a demonstrator concept and also to evaluate the usage of this scaled demonstrator as a development and evaluation tool.---

The prototype is a 13% scale radio controlled model that uses a small 160N jet engine. It weighs 15kg and it has 2,4m length and 1,5m wingspan. It looks similar to the Gripen and the main difference is the V-tail instead of the conventional vertical stabilizer. This small prototype isn't representative of a future fighter, however the arrangement of its control surfaces is similar to other drawings that SAAB has released in the past:


https://www.flightglobal.com/farnboroug ... 73.article

https://web.archive.org/web/20150404122 ... n/gff?l=en

Flumes Flies a Demonstrator of a Generic Future Fighter Aircraft

The division of Fluid and Mechatronic Systems, FluMeS at the department of Management and Engineering, have been rewarded a contract from SAAB and FMV to realise and build a scaled demonstrator of a generic fighter concept.

The concept constitutes a goal and common study object for the defence long term research and development strategy within aeronautics. The concept is a common development between SAAB and FOI with focus on stealth capability, internal load bays and “super cruise” capability.

The goal of the demonstrator is to:

Show a cost effective way, with short lead time, to design and manufacture a flying demonstrator of a concept
Evaluate the usage of scaled demonstrator as a tool for aircraft development, including as “flying wind tunnel”
The demonstrator is in 13% scale and is jet powered. Its characteristics are the following:

Length 2,4 m
Wing span 1,5 m
Take off weight 15 kg
Thrust 160 N

Maiden flight took place in November 2009 and was a success. This work is the result of a project realised within the framework of NFFP4, Swedish National Aeronautics Research Programme.


https://youtu.be/0fx_J3sterM

Last edited by marsavian on 10 Feb 2020, 03:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 03:33

Would be nice to see the 2002 PDF to compare it with the LOCKED 2012 version to monitor any changes. Acrobat can do it.
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 04:33

FFS, It now seems it was a batch of Linköping University students "build a scaled demonstrator of a generic fighter concept" This just gets funnier. :doh:

Spazinbad, Linkomart is a gripen fan and hasn't been shown to be a liar. I would believe him when he says "I’ve just read it and it doesn’t claim that the 39 has that RCS." It seems the link is dead now.
I put the link above from Mars into google and got a translation, that I will have a quick look at. if you wish to.
https://translate.google.com/?tr=f&hl=e ... auto&tl=en

It's not even part of it, it was a 'what if' annex at the end page 48
B NNEX 3 - T YPFALL S TRIDSFLYGGeneral comments on the type caseRobots are typically taken from a source that has chosen significantly higher performance than today's robots.To match this, performance on above all radar has also been set higher than today's. The problemwhat is clear already at first glance is that the typical case becomes extremely sensitive to small variations indetection distance. It is not entirely unlikely that the models need to be made much more accurate andmore truthful to make it possible to get meaningful results. It is above allradar performance where only a standard detection distance may not suffice. TheseHowever, radar performance is necessary to see at this stage that the typical case has a reasonable opportunityto function because of the great sensitivity. Other supplements are hit probabilities, P kill ,performance on antidote etc.The type case may need to be supplemented with a high-altitude UAV with infrared sensor that candetect an incoming robot in the M3 in some cases. Our fighter planes should possibly alsosupplemented with infrared sensor.SummaryTypical fighter aircraft consists of a position with some height readiness. Our strengths include the taskto protect an important fixed land target and to monitor and assert a territory bounded by onea fixed boundary, eg a territorial water boundary. The target is attacked without special warning ofthe opponent's attack company consisting of four attack aircraft and two escort fighter aircraft.Our site has a flying reconnaissance radar, a coastal corvette and a fixed radar station or oneaerostat with radar as sensors. Our side has like weapons air defense robots on the coastal corvette,air defense robots at the target as well as fighter jets. Our site also has a network-based management systemwith a central decision maker.Opening activities and objectsDescribed under the heading "Activities".activitiesAir strikes against targets that are an important facilityThe opponent's aircraft starts from the air base 1000 km from the target perpendicular to our coast andflies in a straight path in the direction of the target. The flying height is 10000 m. The opponent's aircraft comesto complete the mission no matter how large losses they suffer. After completion of the assignment returnsall opponent's aircraft.Flying reconnaissance radar and aerostat-mounted radar are operational and monitor the area. Korvettenalso monitors its environment continuously with radar. When any of these systems have detectedthe opponent's attacking aircraft, the decision maker will order our fighter aircraft to take offto reject these aircraft. The opponent's aircraft does not respond to contact attempts by radio.The opponent's attacking fighter aircraft will fire all radar robots first and then
Page 49
B ILAGA 3 -T CALL FIGHTERSFOI-R - 0338 - SE47all infrared robots against our flying reconnaissance radar and our fighter aircraft until these targets haveeradicated. Our aircraft are attacked in the order in which they are discovered and come within range of the firing range.The opponent's attack aircraft will each fire a robot against the corvette, one againstthe air base and two robots towards the target. These are attacked in the order in which they comeshooting distance. The target is considered defeated if at least one robot hits. If at least one robot hitsthe air base will not be able to launch a fighter aircraft during the rest of the type case. About at least onerobot hit the corvette, all systems on the corvette will be knocked out for the rest ofTypically. The opponent's attack aircraft will fire IR robots at our fighter planesthese come within shooting range. When the attack robots are fired, everyone comesopponent's aircraft to return.When the opponent has fired the first robot and our side has discovered it gets oursfighter aircraft orders to fire fighter robots against primarily the opponent's attack aircraft but alsoagainst the opponent's fighter aircraft if it is not possible to reach the attack aircraft otherwise.If the opponent's aircraft instead, without firing, passes the limit that our force shouldmonitor, for example, a territorial water boundary, our aircraft receive orders to fire fighter robots in the firsthand the opponent's attack aircraft but also against the opponent's fighter plane if it is notpossible to reach the attack aircraft by other means, however, our aircraft should not fire robots at themof the opponent's aircraft that has not yet crossed the monitored limit.ObjectThe opponentAttack aircraft, Attack robots 1Four heavy attack aircraft with 4 attack robots and 4 IR missiles for close combat.Countermeasure pods. Multimodar radar with detection distance 100 km towards a target of 1 m 2radar cross section. Radar measuring area 1 m 2 . Radius of action 1500 km. Speed ​​1000 km / h.Medium long range attack robot aimed at fixed targets. The robot behaves autonomously afterprecipitate. The robot is equipped with a ramjet engine. Medium speed M3. Range 300 km. radar cross section0.1 m 2 .Escort fighter planes, Hunting robotsTwo escort fighter aircraft with 6 long-range radar fighter robots and 4 IRrobots for close combat. Countermeasure pods. Multimodar radar with detection distance 100 km to onetarget with 1 m 2 radar target area. Signature suppression measures have been taken. Radar area 0.1 m 2 .Radius of action 2000 km. Speed ​​1200 km / h (supercruise). The speed is 1000 km / h in the normal case.Long range radar hunting robot with active target finder. The robot is equipped with a ramjet engine.Medium speed M3. Reach 100 kmourGround-bound goalImportant plant that is the target of the attack. For the civilian population close to the target there areany kind of shelter or opportunity to evacuate within 10 minutes of the order being placed.
Page 50
FOI-R - 0338 - SEV ALUATION THE NETWORK -ORIENTED WAR WARRIOR48Corvette 2Corvette equipped with radar, anti-aircraft robots and Telemot means. Radar with detection distance40 km for an air target with 1m 2 radar area. range of the air defense robot 10 km. Speed ​​uppatrol 25 km / h. Radar measuring area 1000 m 2 . Endless endurance.Flying reconnaissance radar 3Radar with detection distance 250 km for an air target with 1m 2 radar measuring area. Speed ​​of patrolling500 km / h. Infinite endurance until the aircraft has been fought by the opponent's aircraft (Several fplis assumed to be able to participate in the assignment and thus a fpl can always be in the air). After fightingthe aircraft cannot be replaced by anything else within the time of the typical case.Aerostat with reconnaissance radar 4Radar with detection distance 250 km for an air target with 1m 2 radar measuring area. (This radar canpossibly replaced with a fixed scout radar similar to PS 860)Air defense robot battery with associated radar 5The range of the air defense robot is 10 km. Radar with detection distance 30 km for an air target with0.1m 2 radar target area (incoming robot).Hunting AircraftJAS 39, which has a hull where signature dampening measures have been taken. Radar area 0.1 m 2 .Action radius 500 km. Speed ​​1000 km / h. Fpl can start 10 minutes after order.The grip can be equipped with a variety of robots and missiles. You can also hang on an extratank on the underside to increase the range. Gripen always has a basic armor regardless of mission.It consists of an AIM-9 Sidewinder in each wing tip and an automatic cannon from Germanybrand Mauser-Werke type Akan w / 85.The balls have a caliber of 27 mm. Then the Gripen can be equipped depending on which mission it is to performperform. Six different robots and missiles including a bomb canister can be carried by JAS 39fighter aircraft 4 radar fighter robots Rb2000 and 2 AIM9 as well as a countermeasure capsuleHunting Robots• Rb 2000 AMRAAM Radar Hunting Robot• AIM-9 Sidewinder Main Function: Air Combat MissileSupplier: Naval Weapons CenterRocket Engine: Hercules and Bermite Mk 36 Mod 71, 8Length: 2.87 metersDiameter: 0.13 metersWarhead: Annular blast fragmentationWeight: 85.5 kilosNavigation system: InfraredUnit cost: $ 84,000
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 05:24

Not sure we are on the same page about the 'changed' LOCKED PDFs first one 2002 then modified 2012 & LOCKED? Doesn't matter - if the PDF was changed/doctored it is just one of those things in the great internet GRIPEN swirl of things eh.
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 06:01

spazsinbad wrote:Not sure we are on the same page about the 'changed' LOCKED PDFs first one 2002 then modified 2012 & LOCKED? Doesn't matter - if the PDF was changed/doctored it is just one of those things in the great internet GRIPEN swirl of things eh.

That PDF may be correct. what was doctored was the image I posted on the last page.. that has been used for showing 0.1.

This PDF shows it was school kids guessing stuff on what may be in 2020.... Of the 6 example missions. The one that has the gripen at 0.1, came to this conclusion as a guess.

Fpl and robots are based on report FOI d no H2001 / 203. Radar radar areas are experience values ​​from FOIDefense analysis personnel. Radar performance corresponds to assessments of what may be reasonable development for2002 made by Rolf Kaddik, FOI Defense Analysis.

2 Generic model based on the corvettes in the Visby series with LV robot type Bamse. The radar area iscalculated on a standard basis as one tenth of what vessels of similar size have today. radar Performancecorresponds to assessments of what may be a reasonable development for 2020 made by Rolf Kaddik, FOIDefense Analysis.

3 FSR890 according to Jane's all the worlds aircraft 1995-96. Radar performance corresponds to assessments of what may be a reasonable development for 2020 made by Rolf Kaddik, FOI Defense Analysis.

4 Radar performance like FSR890 above.

5 Generic model similar to LV robot type Teddy bear. Radar performance corresponds to assessments of what can be a reasonable development for 2020 made by Rolf Kaddik, FOI Defense Analysis.
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 06:07

Had fallen behind on this thread... glad I skipped over the last six pages.... Oy Vey...
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 06:13

steve2267 wrote:Had fallen behind on this thread... glad I skipped over the last six pages.... Oy Vey...

You missed nothing, just the usual 'gripen = 0.1 RCS'

page 48- 54 of the uni paper is a 'what if' mystical scenario played forward 18 years. Using a Janes generic projection as a base.
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 06:20

Steve, Gripen E and Super Hornet are still in the Canada contest so jamming features and RCS of each is relevant even if they are not the favorite to win like F-35.
Last edited by marsavian on 10 Feb 2020, 07:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 07:18

lukfi wrote:There is a saying in Czech, "one who wans to beat a dog always finds a stick". You kept saying that Gripen E has a worse T/W than the original Gripen, when I point out that may not be true, you start claiming the T/W was always bad.


Yes, thats right. If you want to accuse me of moving the goal posts thats fine. The point is you now have an airplane of F-16 weight, but with far less than F-16 thrust. The original Gripen suffered from lack of power. Thats nothing new. saying the Gripen E is just as good/bad... well, enjoy.

But I've repeatedly tried to explain that spare parts are only part of maintenance costs and that small fleets of aircraft exist and are not prohibitively expensive to operate, with the Gripen C/D being one example.


yes you have, and I've repeatedly tried to explain that you have little to no idea what you are talking about

regarding the intricacies of not only aircraft fleet management, aviation administration, aviation operations, and the very unique Canadian aspects of the CF-18 replacement; and both here and in other threads have proved me exactly correct. You were literally telling us how standard 4th generation maintenance concepts were somehow unique to the Gripen, and then without realizing it, doomed the argument for the Gripen E, by including it into those same practices at a time when 4th generation is on the way out in the west.

For a small air force that would be buying 8-12 planes it is not ideal to operate a type that almost nobody else has. But Canada is looking to buy about 65 aircraft (Saab offered them 88)


what?

so is Finland; if either one chose the Gripen E, that would make the fleet size close to the number of Gripen C/Ds flying now.


what?

Obviously we both know that the Gripen does not have a backlog of 1000+ orders from the USAF. We can only guess how successful it's going to be in the sales competitions it's currently involved in. That's what companies do to estimate cash flow, they look at deals in the pipeline, guess how likely they're going to win, multiply the $ by the % and add it all up. Apart from Canada and Finland where the Gripen is up against the F-35, Saab is participating in several bids where the F-16 will be the most serious competition. Namely in Colombia and Philippines they have a good chance of winning, though both would be small deals.


indeed


It is multirole, but with obvious limitations of being a light aircraft. Sweden wanted a fighter suitable for the country's defense (with the dispersed base capability, quick turnaround and all that, which is why I'm sad Switzerland hasn't bought it because it would have been a great fit), not a freedom and democracy dispenser.


its really not an either or proposition... we have "freedom and democracy dispensers" that can outclass a Gripen in those aspects.

That's why the Gripen is what it is.


Gripen E is clearly geared for export, right down to the fact that it would not be authorized by Sweden until Saab found a partner. Please don't pretend its some unique for Sweden only fighter. Its not. according to you Brazil has a huge say in its development correct?

USAF and RAF wanted a plane with good air-to-ground capabilities as they have F-22 and EF Typhoon for air superiority, and that's why the F-35A is what it is.


Nope.

You can look up the whole history of the JSF program. Its not even classified or anything. check it out. If you bring up the JORD that APA is always go on about, I'll laugh at you.


Why is LM entering their strike fighter into competitions for what should be primarily air superiority fighters


LOL why indeed.

You may need a chair, I have some really bad news for you. LOL good god.


Finland is a neutral country, much like Sweden, that doesn't plan on attacking anyone. The ability to destroy enemy SAMs is probably not the highest priority of their air force.


LOL ah yes, why would an air force concern itself with SAMs?

Especially SAMs that have the range to have coverage in your neutral country?

You seem to have every "boxed in" notion of all these things. Only Neutral countries can have planes that operate from dispersed fields, SAMs respect Borders, etc. planes are grouped into "self defense" and "Democracy dispensing freedom SAM killers" and theres apparently no overlap.

You seem to misunderstand core concepts behind 5th generation aircraft and combat, so maybe I'll just use the OLD cliches. 2nd place in combat is dead last. or the only thing more expensive than a first class air force is a second class air force.

I can explain more if your'e interested.

Canada needs to guard its own airspace but it also wants to participate in foreign missions, so they need a good balance of abilities in a single type and it will always be a compromise.


read the thread


Well then let's see you jump as a jack out of the box, saying how this is inaccurate and outdated.


How can you be as bad at Trolling too? this is awful.

Image

What will you do if I'm not here to spoon-feed this whole thread to you?


"All the Europeans" that bought it recently are Slovakia and Bulgaria. 22 planes in total. (Romania is replacing their MiG-21s with F-16s, too, but used ones.) Slovakia had an offer for Gripen C/Ds but they made a political decision to buy American fighters to strenghten their alliance with the US, and never even sought an offer for Gripen E. I wasn't following Bulgaria closely but they had an expert commission that selected the Gripen C/D (either from storage or used), the competing offer was used F-16A/Bs. Then they decided they want to buy new aircraft instead of used and that they want to buy from a NATO member instead of a neutral country.



Pretty crazy the lengths some people will go to to not buy Gripens. The "coincidences" just keep piling up. only 22? man thats as many as the Swiss rejected. oh well think of all the nations that have bought airplanes in Europe the last 10 years, and not one of them was a Gripen NG/E/F.

Really makes you think.

Thus the Gripen E was never considered and under these conditions the F-16 Block 70 was the only one in their price range.


Gripen E's are expensive i guess. who knew?

eagle3000 wrote:What some people choose to ignore is that the idea behind Gripen E evolved. At first, it was little more than increasing internal fuel by moving the gear to the wing roots. Estimated weight for that was 7000 kg.
Later, the program added a lot of additional stuff, resulting in Gripen E we see now. Estimated weight for that is 8000 kg. We don't know the actual empty weight afaik. But hopefully it's not north of 8 tons :wink:


I understand that the gripen has "evolved" the problem is some of its fans sure haven't. We are still bellyaching about the "unevolved" Gripen that Norway Rejected? We're they right to reject it then? Norway is horrible for saying "no" to an airplane we ended up dramatically changing soon after? what monsters.

to most Gripen fans its all the same. they have no problem intermixing every Gripen Variant and evolved and unevolved versions of Gripen E/F to prove whatever is convenient. Schrodingers Gripen

Its comparable and even superior to the F-35, but also 4700 an hour. miracles really do happen folks. when this thing gets into service you'll see!! (repeat for like, 10 years) And we wonder why Xander is so grumpy.

my big issue with the Gripen NG program was they "evolved" it beyond what made the Gripen successful. They have very little in common now. Thank god they share the name.

Gutless ikea F-16, would sell even worse. OTOH, F-16s do seem to sell...
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 10:14

The document you cite above in the thread is a report from the FOI, you are all right that when you read that line the report states that Gripen has an RCS of 0.1 sqare meters.
But the statemnet is out of context. The report is about combat simulations where the different aircrafts are modeled and set up against each other and you try to simulate the battle. The RCS of 0.1 square meters is the RCS of the Gripen model in the simulation. Not many people know swedish in the world, and I can understand the misstake when you only google translate bits of the text.

And that is all I have to say about that.
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 10:17

OK thanks for the explanation. I was interested in the concept that the PDF we have is locked and THEREFORE could not have been tampered with. However we know it was modified in 2012 and probably locked thereafter NOT before. Meanwhile that has become irrelevant with your excellent explanation. Cool.
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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