Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

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hornetfinn

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Unread post24 Sep 2021, 11:08

It seems like this hasn't been posted here before:
https://www.raytheonintelligenceandspace.com/news/advisories/raytheon-intelligence-space-equip-royal-canadian-air-force-hornet-fleet-new-radars?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=AIRDOM&utm_content=_AFA,AFA+ASC&utm_id=55467067735552276982140&linkId=132980692

EL SEGUNDO, Calif., (September 23, 2021) – Raytheon Intelligence & Space, a Raytheon Technologies business (NYSE: RTX), received a $140.3 million U.S. Naval Air Systems Command foreign military sales contract to equip the Royal Canadian Air Force CF-18 Hornet fleet with RI&S’ APG-79(V)4 Active Electronically Scanned Array radar.

The APG-79(V)4 is a scaled version of the APG-79 AESA radar that helps pilots detect and track enemy aircraft from farther distances and with more accuracy than legacy systems. The radar’s improved targeting capabilities provide an edge in crucial operations including air-to-air, maritime strike and air-to-surface missions. Powered by gallium nitride, or GaN, the APG-79(V)4 delivers a compact, efficient design with GaN Transmit/Receive Modules embedded directly into the array.


Google search led me to this:
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/07/17/2020-15511/arms-sales-notification

Major Defense Equipment (MDE):
Fifty (50) Sidewinder AIM-9X Block II Tactical Missiles

Fifty (50) Sidewinder AIM-9X Block II Captive Air Training Missiles (CATMs)

Ten (10) Sidewinder AIM-9X Block II Special Air Training Missiles (NATMs)

Ten (10) Sidewinder AIM-9X Block II Tactical Guidance Units

Ten (10) Sidewinder AIM-9X Block II CATM Guidance Units

Thirty-eight (38) APG-79(V)4 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar

Thirty-eight (38) APG-79(V)4 AESA Radar A1 Kits

Twenty (20) Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW) C, AGM-154C

Forty-six (46) F/A-18A Wide Band RADOMEs

Non-MDE:
Also included are additional technical and logistics support for the AESA radar; upgrades to the Advanced Distributed Combat Training System (ADCTS) to ensure flight trainers remain current with the new technologies; software development to integrate the systems listed into the F/A-18A airframe and install Automated Ground Collision Avoidance System (Auto GCAS); thirty (30) Bomb Release Unit (BRU)—42 Triple Ejector Racks (TER); thirty (30) Improved Tactical Air Launched Decoy (ITALD); one hundred four (104) Data Transfer Device/Data Transfer Units (DTD/DTU); twelve (12) Joint Mission Planning System (JMPS); one hundred twelve (112) AN/ARC-210 RT-2036 (Gen 6) radios and F/A-18 integration equipment; support equipment; tools and test equipment; technical data and publications; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support.


I found this one quite interesting:
d. The Wide Band RADOME (WBR) is a high performance nose radome designed for use with the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar. The WBR is required to leverage the full capability of the AESA Radar. The Radome will provide superior RF performance over broader AESA Radar operational bands which will give the user an advantage in operational scenarios. Specifically, the WBR will provide improved target detection with less interference and reduce jamming vulnerability. Purchasing the AESA without the WBR would significantly reduce the capability of the AESA and the user would gain very little advantage with the AESA.


I doubt this affects Canadian procurement of new fighters, but seems they are keeping their old Hornets relatively viable still. It seems the new AN/APG-79(V)4 isn't too expensive given the really significant improvement in capabilties, reliability and reduced maintenance needs.
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ricnunes

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Unread post24 Sep 2021, 12:56

hornetfinn wrote:
EL SEGUNDO, Calif., (September 23, 2021) – Raytheon Intelligence & Space, a Raytheon Technologies business (NYSE: RTX), received a $140.3 million U.S. Naval Air Systems Command foreign military sales contract to equip the Royal Canadian Air Force CF-18 Hornet fleet with RI&S’ APG-79(V)4 Active Electronically Scanned Array radar.

The APG-79(V)4 is a scaled version of the APG-79 AESA radar that helps pilots detect and track enemy aircraft from farther distances and with more accuracy than legacy systems. The radar’s improved targeting capabilities provide an edge in crucial operations including air-to-air, maritime strike and air-to-surface missions. Powered by gallium nitride, or GaN, the APG-79(V)4 delivers a compact, efficient design with GaN Transmit/Receive Modules embedded directly into the array.


I found this one quite interesting:
d. The Wide Band RADOME (WBR) is a high performance nose radome designed for use with the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar. The WBR is required to leverage the full capability of the AESA Radar. The Radome will provide superior RF performance over broader AESA Radar operational bands which will give the user an advantage in operational scenarios. Specifically, the WBR will provide improved target detection with less interference and reduce jamming vulnerability. Purchasing the AESA without the WBR would significantly reduce the capability of the AESA and the user would gain very little advantage with the AESA.


I doubt this affects Canadian procurement of new fighters, but seems they are keeping their old Hornets relatively viable still. It seems the new AN/APG-79(V)4 isn't too expensive given the really significant improvement in capabilties, reliability and reduced maintenance needs.


Hence why the Gripen E doesn't make any sense for Canada.
An updated Hornet (albeit old) with the AN/APG-79(V)4 AESA radar is IMO a better fighter than the Gripen E.

The Super Hornet should be out/eliminated due to the reasons previously mentioned (namely by Xander) and so this again leaves the "ef thirty five" as the only choice... :wink:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post14 Oct 2021, 00:40

Canadian CF-18 Hornet replacements, a decisive and potentially controversial deadline approaches

On October 18, the House of Commons (Canadian Congress/Parliament) will reconvene and must choose 2 finalists for the FFCP program to replace its CF-18 Hornet, among proposals from Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Saab.

According to the Canadian media Rabble, although there has been a relative consensus among the main political parties in the House of Commons on the need for the purchase of new fighter jets (a replacement that is 10 years overdue), this apparent harmony could fracture because each side has its favorite fighter, and will try to impose it.

Earlier this month, three industry insiders with knowledge of the competition between Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Saab for the $15 billion Future Fighter Capability Project (FFCP) contract were consulted. Two of them believe that the Saab Gripen will be withdrawn from the competition this fall, perhaps in a few weeks. And all three believe the final answer – the choice between the F-35 and the F/A-18 – will come in five months, probably in March 2022.
Fissures that could become fractures

As noted above, the choice of a CF-18 replacement is a decade behind schedule and the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) has recently had to improvise a series of measures (modernization program and purchase of ex-Australian Hornets) to maintain a credible fighter capability while waiting for the FFCP program to materialize. The friction arises because there is no political consensus on the best candidate.

In July 2010, the Harper Conservatives announced that Canada would buy the F-35. Whether this is the Conservatives’ preference under Erin O’Toole is unknown, but they will certainly be poised to score points if Harper’s decision is vindicated.

In October 2015, the Trudeau Liberals clearly stated in their election platform, «We will not buy the F-35 stealth fighter.» If they now go for the F-35, they will have to counter the Conservative attack for this change of course and the 10+ years of delay.

If the Liberals go for the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, they will have to contend with the Canadian military, which has long been a supporter of the F-35.

And the New Democratic Party (NDP) wants to «ensure maximum industrial benefits and jobs» with the purchase, and what could be the leading contender on that score – Saab’s juicy Gripen for Canada proposal – could be withdrawn from the competition in a matter of weeks.

A decision in March in favor of the F-35 could also spark political turmoil, over the issue of large maintenance and flying hour costs, which cause so much discomfort to the USAF and in the UK. Although from Switzerland they argued otherwise.

The Royal Air Force (RAF) has already reduced the number of F-35s it planned to buy due to maintenance costs, while the United States Air Force (USAF) is negotiating intensively with Lockheed Martin to lower the cost per flight hour of its F-35A (the company has pledged to bring it down to US$30,000 by 2023).

If the Liberal government opts for the F-35, it could face similar pressure to reduce its planned purchase of 88 fighter jets to the Conservatives’ original purchase figure of 65 units. Again, uncertainty and potential for recrimination in the chamber.

While the u$s 15 billion purchase price (with an overall program cost of u$s 60.75 billion) has not raised too many eyebrows during earlier phases of the competition, that could change with the parliamentary budget holder’s report early next year and the signing of the contract.

There is also the view that the F-35 is less suited to Arctic defense (so it would not be the best choice for those who argue that the fighters are essential to prevent Russian and Chinese bombers from entering Canadian airspace), but is more geared to surface attack missions, questions could also start to be raised about the effectiveness of militarism, especially after what happened in Afghanistan.

In the opinion of Brent Patterson, author of the original article, these are some of the issues that will have to be addressed in Parliament from October 18.

Given that the current Trudeau government could go on to lose the next election in 2024 and that delivery of the first fighters is not expected until 2025, there are still many unknowns and difficult terrain for this purchase to cross the finish line.

Although the purchase of fighter jets was not a contentious issue in the past elections, it is likely that this relative political peace will be put to the test in the coming months, as the bidding process concludes and the government’s decision faces new scrutiny.

Because major armament programs always have political aspects that can be as or more defining than technical or economic arguments, to steer the decision one way or the other.

https://www.aviacionline.com/2021/10/ca ... w3BVs1TOQs
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spazsinbad

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Unread post14 Oct 2021, 01:33

Does anyone know about/has a reference to this supposed factoid from article immediately above? "...The Royal Air Force (RAF) has already reduced the number of F-35s it planned to buy due to maintenance costs...."
&
Someone brainFrted on this one - just ask the operators of F-35As above the ARCTIC Circle: "...There is also the view that the F-35 is less suited to Arctic defense (so it would not be the best choice for those who argue that the fighters are essential to prevent Russian and Chinese bombers from entering Canadian airspace), but is more geared to surface attack missions..."
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XanderCrews

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Unread post14 Oct 2021, 02:39

Corsair1963 wrote:
If the Liberal government opts for the F-35, it could face similar pressure to reduce its planned purchase of 88 fighter jets to the Conservatives’ original purchase figure of 65 units.



The most hilarious option to be sure. This entire 10 year year odyssey to arrive back at the exact same conclusion. :mrgreen:
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steve2267

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Unread post14 Oct 2021, 03:32

In my opinion, there is still yet a small chance a liberal gummint (aka Turdeau & Co), in a fit of pique, throws a temper tantrum and chooses the Gripen because, you know -- Sweden and the image of that altruistic, perfect arctic socialistic heaven.

If there be any sanity left up north in Canaduh, the Lightning oughta be the logical shoo-in for this competition. But I do not put it past Turdeau to give Biden a run for his money.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post14 Oct 2021, 04:22

steve2267 wrote:In my opinion, there is still yet a small chance a liberal gummint (aka Turdeau & Co), in a fit of pique, throws a temper tantrum and chooses the Gripen because, you know -- Sweden and the image of that altruistic, perfect arctic socialistic heaven.

If there be any sanity left up north in Canaduh, the Lightning oughta be the logical shoo-in for this competition. But I do not put it past Turdeau to give Biden a run for his money.



If Lockheed Martin doesn't win they will of course contest the results. Which, will last until Trudeau is replaced in 2024. :wink:
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Unread post14 Oct 2021, 04:26

spazsinbad wrote:Does anyone know about/has a reference to this supposed factoid from article immediately above? "...The Royal Air Force (RAF) has already reduced the number of F-35s it planned to buy due to maintenance costs...."
&
Someone brainFrted on this one - just ask the operators of F-35As above the ARCTIC Circle: "...There is also the view that the F-35 is less suited to Arctic defense (so it would not be the best choice for those who argue that the fighters are essential to prevent Russian and Chinese bombers from entering Canadian airspace), but is more geared to surface attack missions..."


Dumb considering the Swiss just selected the F-35 and Finland is likely to follow! :?
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Unread post14 Oct 2021, 06:18

And considering Norway is operating them and has used them in Iceland during winter without problems. Also USAF is using them in Alaska without problems. Not that many other countries left besides Finland and Canada who could buy F-35 and which has air bases above Arctic Circle. One of them might go with F-35 soon... :D
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Unread post14 Oct 2021, 06:35

hornetfinn wrote:And considering Norway is operating them and has used them in Iceland during winter without problems. Also USAF is using them in Alaska without problems. Not that many other countries left besides Finland and Canada who could buy F-35 and which has air bases above Arctic Circle. One of them might go with F-35 soon... :D



You could say the F-35 is ideally suited to operate in the far north! :wink:
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Unread post14 Oct 2021, 13:39

Corsair1963 wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Does anyone know about/has a reference to this supposed factoid from article immediately above? "...The Royal Air Force (RAF) has already reduced the number of F-35s it planned to buy due to maintenance costs...."
&
Someone brainFrted on this one - just ask the operators of F-35As above the ARCTIC Circle: "...There is also the view that the F-35 is less suited to Arctic defense (so it would not be the best choice for those who argue that the fighters are essential to prevent Russian and Chinese bombers from entering Canadian airspace), but is more geared to surface attack missions..."


Dumb considering the Swiss just selected the F-35 and Finland is likely to follow! :?


Per hour flight cost vs per mission cost.
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Unread post14 Oct 2021, 18:31

The Canadian PM is nothing more than a dumb SJW leftist socialist.

Tell him the JSF employs an X number of minorities and paint an rainbow colored lgbtqxyz flag on the vertical tails and he will throw full support for the F-35
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Unread post14 Oct 2021, 21:53

steve2267 wrote:In my opinion, there is still yet a small chance a liberal gummint (aka Turdeau & Co), in a fit of pique, throws a temper tantrum and chooses the Gripen because, you know -- Sweden and the image of that altruistic, perfect arctic socialistic heaven.

If there be any sanity left up north in Canaduh, the Lightning oughta be the logical shoo-in for this competition. But I do not put it past Turdeau to give Biden a run for his money.



once its eliminated from competition he can't do anything. and I don't think the way things are he can really weigh in at all given the fact that its an independent apparatus that is deciding the CF-18 replacement. There wouldn't be an F-35 competing if he has his way right?
charlielima223 wrote:The Canadian PM is nothing more than a dumb SJW leftist socialist.

Tell him the JSF employs an X number of minorities and paint an rainbow colored lgbtqxyz flag on the vertical tails and he will throw full support for the F-35


Don't laugh it would work. The Swiss are touting the fact that the F-35 will pollute less than other options
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Unread post14 Oct 2021, 23:58

XanderCrews wrote:
once its eliminated from competition he can't do anything. and I don't think the way things are he can really weigh in at all given the fact that its an independent apparatus that is deciding the CF-18 replacement. There wouldn't be an F-35 competing if he has his way right?
charlielima223 wrote:The Canadian PM is nothing more than a dumb SJW leftist socialist.



Well, then color me confused. If I read the article correctly, it seemed to indicate the Canaduhian Parliament has a say in picking the two finalists? Which does not seem to be an "independent apparatus?"
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post16 Oct 2021, 15:21

steve2267 wrote:In my opinion, there is still yet a small chance a liberal gummint (aka Turdeau & Co), in a fit of pique, throws a temper tantrum and chooses the Gripen because, you know -- Sweden and the image of that altruistic, perfect arctic socialistic heaven.

If there be any sanity left up north in Canaduh, the Lightning oughta be the logical shoo-in for this competition. But I do not put it past Turdeau to give Biden a run for his money.


This right here...

Trudeau is showing shades of Biden, minus the early dementia. The logical choice should be the F-35, but liberals are anything but. Trudeau's decision making process is eerily consistent with Biden's (wrong choice, every time) so more legacy Hornets might actually happen. Hell he's giving them a world class AESA, but it won't do much good with AIM-120C AMRAAM's. And if the radars continue evolving in power like they have, no F-404/414 derivative is going to give it enough.

He'll be stuck with mid-80's hardware, state of the art software/radars and fielding missiles somewhere in between. This should be good for another 10 years, at which time Space Gripen brochures should be operational.
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