Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

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Corsair1963

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Unread post12 Sep 2021, 23:38

durahawk wrote:"But in terms of weapons and tech, the F/A-18E/F isn’t far behind. The aircraft has an advanced cockpit, new computing and advanced datalink alongside conformal fuel tanks "

"In terms of both upfront cost and cost-per-flight, the Boeing F/A-18 costs about half as much as the F-35."

https://eurasiantimes-com.cdn.ampprojec ... ontract%2F

These Boeing hit pieces have just resorted to outright lying now.


Euraiantimes is not a credible source....... :doh:
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pushoksti

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Unread post13 Sep 2021, 15:56

ricnunes wrote:
lbk000 wrote:-We don't need Canada as a barometer of the F-35's efficacy

Yeah but when/if the F-35 wins in Canada it will be another win for the F-35 which is a subject of interest here in this forum, eh?


Will LM even benefit from an F-35 purchase from Canada? I'm really surprised they are still offering it considering all the flip flopping these governments have shown. Seems like the headache selling anything to Canada isn't worth it with our useless procurement system. Boeing and LM should just pull their bids and let the Gripen soar over Canada as a f%ck you to Canada.
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alloycowboy

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Unread post13 Sep 2021, 19:33

The problem with arms sales is they often get polticized because of the money and jobs involved. So when a company submits a bid they always date it so the country requesting requesting the pricing can't prolong the biding process. So in the case of Canada companies like Lockheed Martin will be upping their pricing for all the political hoops they have jump through.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post13 Sep 2021, 23:05

pushoksti wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
lbk000 wrote:-We don't need Canada as a barometer of the F-35's efficacy

Yeah but when/if the F-35 wins in Canada it will be another win for the F-35 which is a subject of interest here in this forum, eh?


Will LM even benefit from an F-35 purchase from Canada? I'm really surprised they are still offering it considering all the flip flopping these governments have shown. Seems like the headache selling anything to Canada isn't worth it with our useless procurement system. Boeing and LM should just pull their bids and let the Gripen soar over Canada as a f%ck you to Canada.


Its really hard to leave double digit billions on the table. Its all the same in some ways, thats what the people who work in these companies are paid to do. Whether it takes 1 year or 10 is beside the point. 14-19 billion? I'm holding fast and not leaving. fun as it would be, theres simply too much money involved to trade it for spite.

hell I don't even know if LM would be allowed to bail from this competition even if it wanted to. I don't think its any secret that both the US and the RCAF want the F-35, not to mention the Canadian government whether it wants to admit it or not. LM may pull some strings, but it doesn't pull the rope. it would be one helluva an incident. I can only imagine all the phone calls. the US government can say no to F-35 sales, but not LM.

This is why I thought it was so funny when Many Canadians said that Boeing arbitrability raised the cost on the interim fighter contract as a f%ck you to Canada-- why on earth would they subvert themselves out of 5 billion? And even that was indeed true, why would Canada want to do business with anyone like that? Isnt that something LM is routinely accused of doing up north for years on end?

Its not a secret though that Canada is a terrible customer in this case. They've burned bridges with every fighter maker out there at this point. often on multiple occasions at this point
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optimist

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Unread post13 Sep 2021, 23:50

They are a partner sale for the F-35 and a gov to gov FMS sale for the FA-18efg. The prices are set the same for everyone. I think you will find that Canada paid the companies to participate. As a partner, I don't know about the F-35? I guess the partner fees cover it. They have paid all their annual fees over the years. So this story of excluding or not buying the f-35. It's a lot of WTF.

What I think happened with Boeing is like with Gripen. They had BS public numbers. The $65m would have been in base year price, 2005? looking at the SAR and the Aussie order, you could see that wasn't what they were going to pay. Being a politician, he and his staff were lazy and took the $65m as the landed, turn key, operational price. Which is really about $250m. Where are the military and evaluating staff, who knew? I think they were all sidelined.
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steve2267

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Unread post14 Sep 2021, 00:58

optimist wrote: Where are the military and evaluating staff, who knew? I think they were all sidelined.


Many of them were muzzled, some publicly. Forced to sign NDA's and/or ordered to keep their traps shut on pain of court-martial -- or at least dismissal. So if the good Canadian airmen new different, some (many?) may have just bit their tongue in a FU pique, figuring that they had been ordered to shut the h*ll up anyway.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post14 Sep 2021, 01:31

Seeing as youse'n are talkin' 'bout the Shornet: the first USN BLOCK III flew 10 Sep?: https://seapowermagazine.org/the-navys- ... the-skies/
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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pushoksti

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Unread post14 Sep 2021, 16:36

spazsinbad wrote:Seeing as youse'n are talkin' 'bout the Shornet: the first USN BLOCK III flew 10 Sep?: https://seapowermagazine.org/the-navys- ... the-skies/


No mention of the new engines?

I still don't know why Canada is considering a Navy aircraft, we don't have aircraft carriers! The new F-15s would make more sense IMO if we weren't going to do the 5th gen route. Two engines for the "vast area to cover" hysterical crowd, massive weapon capacity, huge fuel reserves for flying around over nothing and a true Air Force aircraft. Boeing should've offered it over the SH, that would be more of a fair fight against the F-35.
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steve2267

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Unread post14 Sep 2021, 17:48

pushoksti wrote:I still don't know why Canada is considering a Navy aircraft, we don't have aircraft carriers! The new F-15s would make more sense IMO if we weren't going to do the 5th gen route. Two engines for the "vast area to cover" hysterical crowd, massive weapon capacity, huge fuel reserves for flying around over nothing and a true Air Force aircraft. Boeing should've offered it over the SH, that would be more of a fair fight against the F-35.


Yeah, would be like putting an 8 year old in the ring with a professional MMA fighter instead of a 5 year old.

I could almost get on board Canaduh buying the F-15EX. Almost. It is still inferior to the F-35.

When the whole Canaduh tactical fighter purchase fiasco began, the F-15EX wasn't even a glimmer in Boing's eye.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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ricnunes

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Unread post14 Sep 2021, 17:58

pushoksti wrote:
ricnunes wrote:Yeah but when/if the F-35 wins in Canada it will be another win for the F-35 which is a subject of interest here in this forum, eh?


Will LM even benefit from an F-35 purchase from Canada? I'm really surprised they are still offering it considering all the flip flopping these governments have shown. Seems like the headache selling anything to Canada isn't worth it with our useless procurement system. Boeing and LM should just pull their bids and let the Gripen soar over Canada as a f%ck you to Canada.


Hell yeah!
Like Xander mentioned, 14-19 billion is still ALOT of money! And at the same time an order of 88 aircraft is also nothing to sneeze at.

Moreover, imagine the PR win for LM if/when the F-35 wins in Canada?? They can say something like:
- We don't need "direct and without competition" purchases/orders in order to win. We can win in (all) competitions.

At the same time losing a JSF/F-35 member (which Canada) would never be any good for LM in every possible aspect. It's better to have a "pain in the a$$ costumer" than not having this same costumer.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post14 Sep 2021, 22:51

pushoksti wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Seeing as youse'n are talkin' 'bout the Shornet: the first USN BLOCK III flew 10 Sep?: https://seapowermagazine.org/the-navys- ... the-skies/


No mention of the new engines?

I still don't know why Canada is considering a Navy aircraft, we don't have aircraft carriers! The new F-15s would make more sense IMO if we weren't going to do the 5th gen route. Two engines for the "vast area to cover" hysterical crowd, massive weapon capacity, huge fuel reserves for flying around over nothing and a true Air Force aircraft. Boeing should've offered it over the SH, that would be more of a fair fight against the F-35.



That was never going to happen because the F-15s were going to cost too much to buy and to fly. I see your point, but its dead on arrival. Remember the two big arguments against the F-35 is that it was overkill, and too costly. besides, Boeing was going with the "sneaky" route of backdooring "commonality" with an already in use platform. If Canada had F-16s Boeing would not have tried the same playbook, if they bothered to try at all

Super Hornet seems to hit all the dull Canadian sensibilities: its not overly aggressive, its modest, and its even nice enough to let you know its in the neighborhood thanks to its lack of scary stealth. downright impolite to sucker punch people like that eh?

optimist wrote:They are a partner sale for the F-35 and a gov to gov FMS sale for the FA-18efg. The prices are set the same for everyone. I think you will find that Canada paid the companies to participate. As a partner, I don't know about the F-35? I guess the partner fees cover it. They have paid all their annual fees over the years. So this story of excluding or not buying the f-35. It's a lot of WTF.

What I think happened with Boeing is like with Gripen. They had BS public numbers. The $65m would have been in base year price, 2005? looking at the SAR and the Aussie order, you could see that wasn't what they were going to pay. Being a politician, he and his staff were lazy and took the $65m as the landed, turn key, operational price. Which is really about $250m. Where are the military and evaluating staff, who knew? I think they were all sidelined.


Thats what made the whole thing hilarious. as I said I understand "political maneuvering" they say untrue things to get what they want, but its quiet another level when they believe their own lies. That is what happened here. it was one of those "a truth so self evident, no one bothered to look" and low and behold it was never true.

Seems to be happening a lot these days...
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Sep 2021, 05:14

Odds still favor the F-35 winning....
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Unread post15 Sep 2021, 07:40

I'll buy everyone here a beer if I'm wrong, and you can quote me to saying that the F-35 is going to win in Canada. I would have made this bet back in 2018. I feel even more strongly about it now.

I felt this way in the Swiss competition and in Finland.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Sep 2021, 09:07

kimjongnumbaun wrote:I'll buy everyone here a beer if I'm wrong, and you can quote me to saying that the F-35 is going to win in Canada. I would have made this bet back in 2018. I feel even more strongly about it now.

I felt this way in the Swiss competition and in Finland.



Even "if" the Super Hornet won. It would be appealed and then overruled and the F-35 would still get it....
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Sep 2021, 09:11

Isn't Finland to select a winner for the F-X Contest by the end of this year? If, true and she also picks the F-35 like the Swiss. That would be even more pressure for Canada to follow suit..........
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