Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

[Corsair1963]

Tell Troodoh the program needs a new Turkey?

Canadian Finance minister resigns amid one of Trudeau's many scandals. (fall on that sword friend!)

The irony of more Canadian government corruption, while adding costs with the CF-18 continuance is really something to behold.

Can one imagine if they simply bought the scandalous 65 F-35s at 9 billion and were done with it years ago?

luckily now they've made the contract 88 aircraft, the budget 20 billion, and have already spent billions on the CF-18s and endless evaluations and won't be getting it for years yet, which has caused a further cost cascade into the navy and an exodus from the RCAF.

.....and in the end they'll get the F-35 anyways!

[mixelflick]

I dunno... maybe if Canaduh selects the Super Duper, the jobs in St. Louis will be secure for a little while longer... and the US Navy can stop buying it sooner and ramp up the purchase of Lightnings.

This is supposed to be the last fiscal year in which the Navy buys the Super Hornets.

Isn't that a half truth though?

I thought the Block III modernizations will be ongoing for a long time, perhaps decades. If I'm not mistaken, existing SH's are going to get totally made over when they're due for overhaul, getting the upgrades as time goes on. So while the Navy might not be buying more airframes, it is making sigificant changes to existing aircraft via upgrades.

[XanderCrews]

Isn't that a half truth though?

No.

This is supposed to be the last fiscal year in which the Navy buys the Super Hornets.

I thought the Block III modernizations will be ongoing for a long time, perhaps decades. If I'm not mistaken, existing SH's are going to get totally made over when they're due for overhaul, getting the upgrades as time goes on. So while the Navy might not be buying more airframes, it is making sigificant changes to existing aircraft via upgrades.

you just answered your own question

[spazsinbad]

Boeing would perform Canadian Super Hornet final assembly in US
29 Oct 2020 Pat Host

"Boeing would perform final assembly of its F/A-18 Block III Super Hornets in the United States rather than Canada if it wins Canada’s Future Fighter Capability Project (FFCP) competition....

“It was decided that the benefits of standing up these types of operations in Canada were not worth the investment,” Barnes said. “We are concentrating on the decades of life cycle support for our partners’ work share, including potential work on US Navy Super Hornets.”

Boeing is competing against the Saab Gripen E with production in Canada and the Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) for the FFCP. The winning company will replace the Royal Canadian Air Force’s (RCAF’s) legacy Boeing F/A-18 (CF-18/CF-188 in national service) fighter fleet.

The industrial and technical benefits (ITB) portion of an offeror’s bid is an important part of a proposal. Jennifer Seidman, Boeing international strategic partnerships country manager for Canada, said on 27 October that both defence production and skills development were part of the company’s ITB proposal, but that she could not provide further details...."

Source: https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... mbly-in-us

[XanderCrews]

Boeing would perform Canadian Super Hornet final assembly in US
29 Oct 2020 Pat Host

"Boeing would perform final assembly of its F/A-18 Block III Super Hornets in the United States rather than Canada if it wins Canada’s Future Fighter Capability Project (FFCP) competition....

“It was decided that the benefits of standing up these types of operations in Canada were not worth the investment,” Barnes said. “We are concentrating on the decades of life cycle support for our partners’ work share, including potential work on US Navy Super Hornets.”

Boeing is competing against the Saab Gripen E with production in Canada and the Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) for the FFCP. The winning company will replace the Royal Canadian Air Force’s (RCAF’s) legacy Boeing F/A-18 (CF-18/CF-188 in national service) fighter fleet.

The industrial and technical benefits (ITB) portion of an offeror’s bid is an important part of a proposal. Jennifer Seidman, Boeing international strategic partnerships country manager for Canada, said on 27 October that both defence production and skills development were part of the company’s ITB proposal, but that she could not provide further details...."

Source: https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... mbly-in-us

no surprise, but a good update

[alloycowboy]

Here is a question. Given Boeing's current financial status of being near junk bond status, do you think this will affect Canadian Government's choice of which fighter jet it buys?

[tank-top]

Here is a question. Given Boeing's current financial status of being near junk bond status, do you think this will affect Canadian Government's choice of which fighter jet it buys?

Why would it, their stock value has nothing to do with their operating capital. That aside if they get a contract to build a new fighter jet they will absolutely find the investors to fund their operating capital. A loan with the US government as the guarantor, everyone is buying AA paper.

[marauder2048]

Here is a question. Given Boeing's current financial status of being near junk bond status, do you think this will affect Canadian Government's choice of which fighter jet it buys?

Why would it, their stock value has nothing to do with their operating capital. That aside if they get a contract to build a new fighter jet they will absolutely find the investors to fund their operating capital. A loan with the US government as the guarantor, everyone is buying AA paper.

They are burning through cash quite rapidly and their stock price does, in part, dictate their borrowing rates
which they have been doing a lot of recently.

I don't think it will really impact their ability to execute the contract on the fighter front
but it might impact their ability to satisfy the offset requirements assuming GE and Raytheon and L3 don't
step up.

Edit: Just occurred to me, Canada is buying the Block 4 F-35 right? If so, Raytheon and L3 (which acquired Harris)
don't have the same incentive to push for the Super Hornet that they did before.

[alloycowboy]

The danger here for Canada if they buy the F-18E Super Hornets and Boeing goes bankrupt thus restructuring and shelving the Super Hornet program is that Canada will have to pay a preium for parts and support.

What would be really ironic is if Northrop Grumman ended up buying the Super Hornet program from Boeing, then it would have gone full circle.

[marauder2048]

The danger here for Canada if they buy the F-18E Super Hornets and Boeing goes bankrupt thus restructuring and shelving the Super Hornet program is that Canada will have to pay a preium for parts and support.

What would be really ironic is if Northrop Grumman ended up buying the Super Hornet program from Boeing, then it would have gone full circle.

I think Boeing would lean on its defense suppliers but the possibility of it going bankrupt after winning the contract
is not very likely since it would have a credit worthy sovereign state as an income stream on a program that
has enjoyed very high margins; Boeing margins on the first SH MYP were 25%!

Lenders tend to like that.

Boeing is executing on enough defense contracts that you'd probably see enough accelerated progress payments
if things got bad.

For Canada, that might result in buying the SH a rate that's greater than what they need annually in order to keep the
line running at some economically productive rate.

Has Canada said they would be buying the Super Hornet on a direct commercial basis?

[luke_sandoz]

The Boeing strategy . . . For the win

https://www.wingsmagazine.com/boeing-ou ... -benefits/

[mixelflick]

Boeing isn't going bankrupt, as they're the only other fighter manufacturer the pentagon has. Their commercial aviation segment (and perhaps even space) will suffer, but no way Boeing stops building fighters. Granted, they're building yesterday's fighters but the whole point of the F-15EX buy was corporate welfare.

They as much as said it...

[ricnunes]

The Boeing strategy . . . For the win

https://www.wingsmagazine.com/boeing-ou ... -benefits/

Even if Boeing wins on benefits it would only win at 20% of the overall score (remember 60% for performance, 20% for benefits and 20% for cost). And even so it far from guaranteed that Super Hornet wins on benefits. For instance and if I'm not mistaken most of Boeing's 'partners' listed in your link, namely CAE, L3 and Raytheon are also JSF/F-35 'partners'.
Moreover there are also other Canadian companies which participate on the F-35 program such and namely as: Magellan Aerospace, Avcorp Industries, Pratt & Whitney Canada, among others...

[XanderCrews]

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/sa ... 98.article

Its like the problems just never end with this thing, and its still not even in service.

[luke_sandoz]

Everyone can have an opinion, even people who are better at photography



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74xfpYAoTWc