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Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 12:56
by basher54321
steve2267 wrote:
Who benefits the most from this? I'd say the CeeCeePee is doing very well. How to win the fight? By preventing the fight in the first place by neutering one's enemas from the get go. I think you have to wonder whether the Brits will even be able to put one carrier with a decent complement of aircraft in the SCS at all.






Historically they don't tend to do what makes logical sense - I mean at the top end it probably makes sense and they don't generally care to much about the people on the ground - not just serving military but jobs related to military programs.

When you have your own fiat based currency and a bank that must by law create and give you new money whenever you ask, money is no object when it comes to spending on national projects - the only limit is economic resource. If they see there are economic benefits then that will be the value add.

You might think they would be saving money by not buying F-35s and that is no doubt how it will be spun - but spending on Tempest changes nothing. They DO NOT need to slash the F-35 numbers to finance Tempest or anything for that matter!

If they slash the F-35 buy then you would hope it is for a good reason but really no idea. I expect the Biden admin will be fine with it they usually are. COVID may be used as an excuse to slash everything - what they wont be telling anyone is Quantitative Easing should have essentially paid off COVID and cancelled any associated debt.

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 14:39
by basher54321
steve2267 wrote: And I'll be surprised if Tempest ever flies as an optionally manned tactical aircraft, even fifth generation.



See I really don't think they care if it will ever fly or how much money is spent on it. What I would predict is that when another administration comes in - or another down the line things will change again. :D

I don't know much about the program but if you look up the TSR.2 - that was a very advanced British development that was cancelled in favor of the F-111K - which then got cancelled for the F-4KM. (Were the numbers reduced?? will see)


Sounds like business as usual and nothing to see but who knows.

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 14:49
by steve2267
basher54321 wrote:
steve2267 wrote:See I really don't think they care if it will ever fly or how much money is spent on it. What I would predict is that when another administration comes in - or another down the line things will change again. :D


Fair 'nuff. It's their fiat currency. Their nation. They can do as they please. They could say, "We've decided to go in a different direction, so we're cutting our F-35B buy." But to claim they are cutting F-35B to "finance" Tempest? :drool: Lol. Whatever. :doh:

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 14:52
by steve2267
The time is ripe for the Canaduhians to claim, "Know what? The Brits have this phenomenal concept called Tempest under development. It makes more sense for us to wait another 10-20 years until Tempest is ready before we spend our citizen's heard earned fiat currency." That would be icing on the cake, and help complete this muddle.

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 15:55
by basher54321
There you go Steve

The original Royal Navy order was for 143 Phantoms, but cuts in the carrier fleet resulted in a reduction to 137, then to 110, and finally to only 50 plus an option for seven more.

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_22.html




The meeting went something like:

"Aircraft Carriers!! why do we need those old boy, the war ended years ago, we'll never need those again - besides my good friend Lord Potherington-Smythe has opened a new bank and needs to p*ss that money away on Speculation!"

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 16:05
by steve2267
Thanks for the historical context of those Phantoms -- of which I was not aware. Puts things in better perspective.

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 18:27
by milosh
Corsair1963 wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Maybe there's a silver lining in this mess...

RAF get's forty-eight Bees.

The Brits can chase their Tempest Teapot (did I say tea kettle?).

And the USMC finally gets two Lightning carriers... (maybe four if they keep the first two America class as aviation-only. Though that may be less likely after Bonhomme melted.)



If, this truly happens I would expect the HMS Prince of Wales will be on the chopping block within a year or two.... :(


From Wiki:
The 2010 SDSR declared that the UK needed only one aircraft carrier; however, penalty clauses in the contract meant that cancelling the second vessel would be more expensive than actually building it. The SDSR, therefore, directed that the second aircraft carrier, Prince of Wales, should be built but upon completion be either mothballed or sold.

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 18:51
by spazsinbad
Yeah but does WIKI say (you provide no URL reference) that later PMs promised there would ALWAYS be the TWO of 'em?

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 18:56
by steve2267
Like I wrote earlier. Give the Lightnings to the RAF flyboys, let the RN chaueffer the USMC around on the QE and POW. I'm sure the Jarheads would love a couple of party barges. :drool: Woe to the RN aviators though. Maybe offer them a transfer to the USMC. :doh:

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 19:00
by spazsinbad
The idea that 'when push is shoved' that the RAF will get the only F-35Bs in service SEEMS TO ME extremely unlikely. But then again all of this speculation of a downward spiral (over a longer term of service of F-35B) seems 'unlikely' to me.

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 19:17
by steve2267
spazsinbad wrote:The idea that 'when push is shoved' that the RAF will get the only F-35Bs in service SEEMS TO ME extremely unlikely. But then again all of this speculation of a downward spiral (over a longer term of service of F-35B) seems 'unlikely' to me.


You may well be correct Spaz. Though the historical example cited by Basher did not show greater numbers of Phantoms being purchased later, after its purchase had been whittled down.

I don't care. Let the RN nasal radiators keep the Lightning. The RAF chappies can play with Typhies and 'nados (if they are still flying) until their vaunted tempest teacup arrives. (But by that time, it may no longer be optionally manned, but nonoptionally unmanned. Oh well.)

I still think the USMC would love to be driven around on two pretty much spanking brand new party barges.

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 19:33
by spazsinbad
UK fantoms may well be an example but just that. Since the end of WWII the Brits have been all over the place with Naval Aviation/Aircraft Carriers. Whittling down the number of carriers especially ones capable perhaps of operating the tOM made a difference as well but it is again all really too complicated to replicate reasons here on this F-35B MUDDLE thread.

A WELL NAMED THREAD doncha know eh. MUDDLE is the MIDDLE name for the U MUDDLE K.

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 19:49
by spazsinbad
Royal Navy seeking information on cats and traps to launch drones
09 Mar 2021 Harry Lye

"...In a statement, a Royal Navy Spokesperson told Naval Technology: “The Royal Navy is committed to ensuring it is ready to confront future wars and is exploring the use of novel and innovative technologies including uncrewed air systems.

“This tender is purely an information-gathering exercise to gauge existing technology and it is not an indication of intent of further procurement activity.”

Currently, the UK is to develop a so-called ‘Loyal Wingman’ UAV designed to support the F-35, Typhoon and Tempest Future Combat Air System. A maritime variant of the uncrewed aircraft could support future carrier strike operations.

The Royal Navy Spokesperson added: “The Armed Forces regularly conduct fact-finding exercises with industry partners to understand the latest technological developments and how they can improve existing equipment to meet future threats.”

It is possible that the ongoing Tempest project to deliver a replacement for the Eurofighter Typhoon from 2035 could produce a carrier-capable aircraft.

The RFI is part of a wider push to incorporate more UAVs into its air vehicle fleet across most of its warfighting vessels. It is understood that at this stage no further discussions with industry about the potential cats and traps are planned.

Naval Technology understands that the RFI is part of the Royal Navy’s standard process to understand what industry can deliver and is not related to the soon to be published Integrated Review of Security, Defence, Development and Foreign Policy."

Source: https://www.naval-technology.com/featur ... and-traps/

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 19:55
by steve2267
Here's a wonderin' if the RN doesn't have an eye on the RQ-25. That would at least make a little sense in being able to extend the range of the British Bees, and possibly the Tempest (should it ever fly) -- or any other UAVs. (But if the Brits try to develop another UAV to accompany the Bee as a loyal wingman... wont that take preshuss funds awaw from the tempest teacup?)

On the other hand... how many RNV-22B's might be bought for AAR and AEW (maybe even ASW) roles? I bet with the money spent adding cats and traps... the RN would have more than enough Ospreys. (Shhhh... be wewy qwiette...)

Re: UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2021, 19:58
by milosh
steve2267 wrote:Like I wrote earlier. Give the Lightnings to the RAF flyboys, let the RN chaueffer the USMC around on the QE and POW. I'm sure the Jarheads would love a couple of party barges. :drool: Woe to the RN aviators though. Maybe offer them a transfer to the USMC. :doh:


And why for RAF want F-35B? I mean if they want F-35 it would be A.