UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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doge

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Unread post02 Dec 2020, 19:26

Does RAF use the F-35B as an AEW !? :shock: :doh:
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/the-st ... t-project/
The strike carrier’s eye in the sky – update on the Crowsnest project
SEPTEMBER 25, 2020
When the Carrier Strike Group sails on its first operational deployment in May 2021 it should carry 3 merlins with pre-IOC standard Crowsnest kits. Depending on how well the technical development, test and trails programme progresses over the next few months, this may offer almost full capability or be advanced prototypes that may not be fully reliable. What is clear is that there will very limited time for the aircrews to work up the new capability and conduct meaningful exercises in conjunction with F-35 jets.
Despite the overdue introduction into service, Crowsnest should ultimately deliver an effective ISR at sea and over land, if needed. When the capabilities of the F-35’s sensors are fully exploited and paired with Crowsnest, the situational awareness of the Carrier Strike Group will be excellent. Critics will doubtless bemoan that this is not the gold standard E-2D Hawkeye or speculate about non-existent V-22 Osprey-based AEW solutions but this is an affordable and attainable solution, given the RN’s resources.
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Unread post06 Dec 2020, 04:47

UK to send aircraft carrier strike group to waters near Japan
06 Dec 2020 NikkeiASIA

"Drills with US and Japanese forces expected in rare British foray into Western Pacific

TOKYO (Kyodo) -- The British navy will dispatch an aircraft carrier strike group to waters near Japan as soon as early next year, Japanese government sources said Saturday, in a rare development that comes amid the growing maritime assertiveness of China in the region.

The group, including the aircraft carrier Queen Elizabeth, is expected to conduct joint exercises with the U.S. military and Japan's Self-Defense Forces during its stay in areas including off the Nansei Islands chain in southwestern Japan, the sources said. It is unusual that countries other than those in the region as well as the U.S. keep an aircraft carrier operational in the western Pacific....

...During the dispatch, the British navy also plans to conduct maintenance on carrier-based F-35B stealth fighter jets at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd.'s aerospace systems works in Aichi Prefecture, central Japan, the sources said...."

[earlier: https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Intern ... nt-to-Asia ]

Source: https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Intern ... near-Japan
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Unread post07 Dec 2020, 05:55

doge wrote:When the Carrier Strike Group sails on its first operational deployment in May 2021 it should carry 3 merlins with pre-IOC standard Crowsnest kits. Depending on how well the technical development, test and trails programme progresses over the next few months, this may offer almost full capability or be advanced prototypes that may not be fully reliable. What is clear is that there will very limited time for the aircrews to work up the new capability and conduct meaningful exercises in conjunction with F-35 jets.
Despite the overdue introduction into service, Crowsnest should ultimately deliver an effective ISR at sea and over land, if needed. When the capabilities of the F-35’s sensors are fully exploited and paired with Crowsnest, the situational awareness of the Carrier Strike Group will be excellent. Critics will doubtless bemoan that this is not the gold standard E-2D Hawkeye or speculate about non-existent V-22 Osprey-based AEW solutions but this is an affordable and attainable solution, given the RN’s resources.


They can spin it all they want. Yet, the Crowsnest is hardly an ideal solution...

What the UK really needs is a modest fleet of V-22 Osprey's. Which, can be used in the COD, Tanker, and yes AEW&C Roles. The latter could have used the Vigilance System. With the F-35B's APG-81 AESA Radar. Hell, Tanker and AEW&C Systems are plug and play. So, they could use a pool of aircraft and mix and match as needed!

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... lower-cost
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noth

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Unread post07 Dec 2020, 09:34

Corsair1963 wrote:
doge wrote:When the Carrier Strike Group sails on its first operational deployment in May 2021 it should carry 3 merlins with pre-IOC standard Crowsnest kits. Depending on how well the technical development, test and trails programme progresses over the next few months, this may offer almost full capability or be advanced prototypes that may not be fully reliable. What is clear is that there will very limited time for the aircrews to work up the new capability and conduct meaningful exercises in conjunction with F-35 jets.
Despite the overdue introduction into service, Crowsnest should ultimately deliver an effective ISR at sea and over land, if needed. When the capabilities of the F-35’s sensors are fully exploited and paired with Crowsnest, the situational awareness of the Carrier Strike Group will be excellent. Critics will doubtless bemoan that this is not the gold standard E-2D Hawkeye or speculate about non-existent V-22 Osprey-based AEW solutions but this is an affordable and attainable solution, given the RN’s resources.


They can spin it all they want. Yet, the Crowsnest is hardly an ideal solution...

What the UK really needs is a modest fleet of V-22 Osprey's. Which, can be used in the COD, Tanker, and yes AEW&C Roles. The latter could have used the Vigilance System. With the F-35B's APG-81 AESA Radar. Hell, Tanker and AEW&C Systems are plug and play. So, they could use a pool of aircraft and mix and match as needed!

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... lower-cost


Or the USMC could get some for their gator carriers and pay for the development. Then maybe the UK might afford some. Italy and Spain have a similar requirement but are nowhere near able to pay for it. Australia, Japan and South Korea need them too. But it'll take USMC to get this ball rolling. Also Ospreys are bloody expensive to buy and operate and I think the RN are waiting for some UAV development instead. This has been debated for over a decade, the conclusion is always: no money.
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Unread post07 Dec 2020, 11:19

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13400921/ ... -stranded/

HMS Prince of Wales was due to sail to the US to train with F-35 jets.

HMS Prince of Wales will be stranded another six months after a second flood blew electricsCredit: VIS UK
But the £3.1billion vessel has been banned from leaving Portsmouth on safety grounds until spring, a year after she last sailed.

The flood was caused by a burst fire main.

Thousands of gallons of sea water poured into an engine room and submerged electrical cabinets for over 24 hours.

Miles of cables are being assessed.

The 1,000ft ship, the Navy’s biggest, relies on electricity produced by diesel engines and gas turbines to turn 33-ton propellers.

A source said: “It’s embarrassing. The America trip took years of planning and we’ve had to say we can’t come.

"It will take months to repair the damage. Costs will run to millions.”

In May a video emerged showing water pouring through a ceiling into a living quarters.

The Navy said that was a minor issue.


Looks like the SRVL testing is going to be pushed back or possibly moved to HMS Queen Elizabeth. Quite the setback, and this is the THIRD major incident during maintenance of a Western navy's major assets (after the French SSN Perle and the USS Bonhomme Richard) this year. I'm beginning to wonder if this is a Chinese campaign to take out ships by sabotage?
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Unread post07 Dec 2020, 11:53

Hold your horses. Firstly the 'news' is from THE SUN. You missed the FAB HEADLINE: "UP SHIP CREEK Navy’s new £3bn aircraft carrier HMS Prince of Wales stranded for six months after second flood blows electrics - 06 Dec 2020 - Jerome Starkey" - I'm suggesting you wait for an OFFICIAL RN news report rather than this seeming anon BEAT UP!
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Unread post07 Dec 2020, 17:13

Now Save The Royal Navy have a confirming post up: https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/one-of ... -of-wales/ . How much more do you need? The RN aren't in any hurry to confirm or deny this, but the carrier hasn't been at sea in 3 months. Their twitter feed hinted on 7th of September of a possible upcoming voyage but nothing since. Clearly something's up.
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Unread post07 Dec 2020, 20:26

WELL then HANG ON AGAIN! SaveTheRoyalNavy is a BLOG after all. An EXCELLENT Blog but still only a BLOG! And THE SUN is still a 'sensationalist TABLOID loudmouth newspaper' with ZERO credibility. Funny you did not 'report' excerpt this bit.

Note the tone of the SaveTheRoyalNavy report. No speculation about consequences of the flooding such as in in THE SUN.
One of the reasons the Royal Navy needs two aircraft carriers – a setback for HMS Prince of Wales
07 Dec 2020 SaveTheRoyalNavy

"...It is unclear if the RN will be liable for the costs of the repair but it would seem the contractor (The Aircraft Carrier Alliance) is likely to be responsible for making good if the cause was faulty pipework and not human error.

The RN cannot be expected to give a public running commentary on every breakdown, opdef or minor issue that occurs. These type of problems happen in every navy in the world, however, the aircraft carriers have a particularly high profile and there is no lack of official coverage of their successes. In this case, involving a more serious incident, the Ministry of Defence should perhaps have allowed the RN to admit the flood and provide some detail about the cause and their response. This would help build public trust in their messaging and reduce the embarrassment when it inevitably became public. It was obvious that eventually, journalists would notice the ship had not sailed for months and begin asking questions. Predictably the mainstream media are now reporting the situation in more sensationalist terms than if a calm official explanation had been provided at the time...."

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Unread post07 Dec 2020, 21:17

spazsinbad wrote:Hold your horses. Firstly the 'news' is from THE SUN. You missed the FAB HEADLINE: "UP SHIP CREEK Navy’s new £3bn aircraft carrier HMS Prince of Wales stranded for six months after second flood blows electrics - 06 Dec 2020 - Jerome Starkey" - I'm suggesting you wait for an OFFICIAL RN news report rather than this seeming anon BEAT UP!



:lmao:

Yep Spaz is right The Sun is one of the lowest forms of gutter tabloid press there is - a lot wont know that though.
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Unread post08 Dec 2020, 17:52

basher54321 wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Hold your horses. Firstly the 'news' is from THE SUN. You missed the FAB HEADLINE: "UP SHIP CREEK Navy’s new £3bn aircraft carrier HMS Prince of Wales stranded for six months after second flood blows electrics - 06 Dec 2020 - Jerome Starkey" - I'm suggesting you wait for an OFFICIAL RN news report rather than this seeming anon BEAT UP!



:lmao:

Yep Spaz is right The Sun is one of the lowest forms of gutter tabloid press there is - a lot wont know that though.


Do you both really think I don't that? Tabloids aren't my cup of tea either, but in a sea of fake news, including from "respected sources", you have to cut and choose. However, it hasn't been at sea in rather a long time. Something is up.
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Unread post08 Dec 2020, 18:43

noth wrote:Something is up.


Yeah, stupidity and negligence.
Human error anf lack of attention cost US two DDGs and several sailors their lives. Norwegians lost 20% of theit FFG fleet for the similar reasons. QE sprung a leak too, as well as most of the newly built ships.
Did the Chinese torch their newest LHD too?
Was it CIA blackop that fell the crane on Kuznetsov and blew up Losharik?
The guy who burned USS Miami did it because "he wanted to go home early". Stop this BS
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Unread post08 Dec 2020, 20:02

I think 'noth' has dropped his conspiracy theory. For sure now we know there was a serious flooding of important / vital compartments in HMS Prince of Wales, perhaps it was the builders problem or something else but not likely sabotage.

I'll guess the RN does not know the cause completely OR the effect of all this on the schedule; seems their PR is deficient.
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Unread post09 Dec 2020, 05:00

The local Portsmouth media are now also covering the incident aboard HMS PoW

They also appear to have a photo of the flood itself....

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defen ... od-3059727

A Royal Navy spokesman added: ‘Following an issue with an internal system in HMS Prince of Wales, the ship’s company removed water from one of the ship’s compartments.

'No one was injured and an investigation into the cause of the issue is underway.’
Andy Evans Aviation Photography
www.evansaviography.co.uk
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Unread post09 Dec 2020, 14:05

Will be more Bees, just no idea how many. Decision punted to the next PM.

British F-35 buy is still a moving target, defense ministry tells lawmakers

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... lawmakers/

LONDON – British Ministry of Defence officials have confirmed the military will buy more than the 48 F-35B combat jets already on order, but they were reluctant to be drawn on exactly when and how many aircraft may eventually be involved when they gave evidence to the parliamentary Defence committee Dec 8.

The number and profile of a future order will in part be decided by the outcome of assessment work the British are doing on their future combat air strategy, Air Marshal Richard Knighton, the deputy chief of the defense staff for capability, told the committee hearing.

“We know we need to increase the number of F-35Bs to support the [Royal Navy] carrier through to its out-of-service date. The precise number will dependent a bit on the work we do and the investment we are making on the FCAS,” he said, referring to the UK-led Tempest program. “We expect to make a definitive judgement around the total future fleet in the 2025 timeframe,” Knighton added.

Britain originally committed to buy 138 of the Lockheed Martin short take-off vertical landing combat jets to equip a joint force of Royal Navy/Royal Air Force aircraft. The F-35Bs are principally scheduled to equip two new 65,000 tonne aircraft carriers.

Knighton said the final number could be up to the 138 commitment, or less. “We need to do the analysis and work to ensure we get the right number,” he told the committee.

To date the British have ordered 48 of the jets. So far 21 have been delivered, with the remaining aircraft under contract due to be delivered by 2025.

The first of the carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth, is scheduled to make its first operational deployment next year to the Indian Ocean with a mix of British and U.S. Marine Corps F-35Bs onboard.

The British plan to only deploy one carrier at any given time due to a lack of resources. Some 24 jets are expected to be the full complement of fighters on board even though senior Royal Navy officers have said the ships could operate with up to 72 jets at a squeeze.

Knighton said the British “will be able to operate up to 24 aircaft from 2023 onwards, that’s been the milestone for some time. If we want to order aircraft to be delivered in the later part of the decade we will need to allocate some of the funding that we anticipate [being available] to do that. That is part of the analysis and thinking that we are doing with ministers at the moment.”

Defence committee chairman Tobias Ellwood commented on the small number of jets the British plan to operate from the carriers, saying: “We are going to end up with a fantastic looking aircraft carrier, very bespoke aircraft, but not many of them onboard.”

Sir Stephen Lovegrove, the permanent secretary at the MoD, told the committee that while it was certain Britain would order more jets it wouldn’t be anytime soon.

“It’s inevitable we are going to buy more than 48 jets, otherwise we won’t be able to operate the carriers probably. Not for the next four years, though, it’s about the 48 [jets on order].”

“There are certainly plans and conversation with Lockheed Martin about the future purchases, we just haven’t got to the stage of contract yet,” said Lovegrove.

The permanent secretary, the MoD’s top civil servant, suggested the aircraft wouldn’t be available quickly even if Britain had the funds to buy them.

“Even if tomorrow we discover the magic money tree and we decided we wanted to buy 200 F-35B we couldn’t get them just like that anyway. They take forever to manufacture, we will make our orders when they are available,” he said.

Other take-aways from the committee hearings included MoD permanent secretary Sir Stephen revealing that Defence Secretary Ben Wallace is to make a statement soon outlining program cuts ahead of publication of the government’s integrated strategy review set for publication in late January.

The government recently announced a £16 billion increase in MoD funding over the four years starting in April 2021, much of that will go to equipment and other capital programs.

Despite that, Lovegrove signaled there were some painful cuts coming to programs that don’t support the government’s swing towards cyber, space , underwater and other high-tech programs and away from legacy platforms.

Lovegrove said the time for “sentimentality” was over on legacy programs. There were some “difficult decisions to be made” in what he termed “disinvestment.”

Pentagon officials who had been kept informed of British intentions were said to have approved of the British moves.

Knighton said a program to update the British Army’s Challenger 2 fleet is due to go the MoD’s investment approvals board in the next few days. The program was in good shape, he said.

A reduction in Challenger 2 numbers has been touted by analysts and media as being in the government sights for months.
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Unread post13 Dec 2020, 06:49

noth wrote:
Or the USMC could get some for their gator carriers and pay for the development. Then maybe the UK might afford some. Italy and Spain have a similar requirement but are nowhere near able to pay for it. Australia, Japan and South Korea need them too. But it'll take USMC to get this ball rolling. Also Ospreys are bloody expensive to buy and operate and I think the RN are waiting for some UAV development instead. This has been debated for over a decade, the conclusion is always: no money.


The Royal Navy has no way to resupply the Queen Elizabeth Class Carriers with spare P&W F135's. For their F-35B Lighting II's....plus no Tankers either. So, without the support of USN Carriers. Their abilities to project power will be somewhat limited.
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