UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

[Corsair1963]

Methinks you read to much into it. Co-operation amongst F-35 flying countries has been 'the norm' from the GETgo. No?

No, I don't think so. As it gives the UK Public the excuse that they don't need more F-35's for the Queen Elizabeth Class. As the US Military will make up the difference....

[Corsair1963]

Corsair1963, the RAF/RN F-35 inter-service rivalry over models will ensure pressure on more F-35 still being bought by UK. In fact if Tempest is late or even cancelled there might even be more than 138 bought eventually. Also the fact that there are two different models to choose from apart from the F-35B ensures more interest, for instance what if Tempest isn't ready when the Tranche 1 Typhoons are due for retirement in the 2030s ? What if traps are decided to be put on the QE Carriers in a MLU ? Quite a lot of future opportunities lie in the decades ahead for the F-35 in the UK.

Already considerable talk that the RAF wants the F-35A. So, even "if" the UK would get the full 138 aircraft. They may push for mainly F-35A's. While, relying on the USMC to make up for any shortfall in F-35B's for the Queen Elizabeth Class.

[spazsinbad]

Don't know how the "UK Public" have a say in this meme you have invented about UK not getting their complement of F-35Bs for CVFs. Then 'the thing' about F-35As is borderline crystal ball stuff at this point. One needs to be patient. FFsake the CVFs with F-35Bs are not operational. I'll wager when QE demonstrates usefulness in whatever scenario, all will be OK.

[usnvo]

Don't know how the "UK Public" have a say in this meme you have invented about UK not getting their complement of F-35Bs for CVFs. Then 'the thing' about F-35As is borderline crystal ball stuff at this point. One needs to be patient. FFsake the CVFs with F-35Bs are not operational. I'll wager when QE demonstrates usefulness in whatever scenario, all will be OK.

On top of that, typical load out for the QE is something like 24 F-35B with a variety of other aircraft. Yes, it could go higher, but it is unlikely to ever exceed 48 for any operation. Even if half of the F-35 force were Bs and half were As, you would still have 69 Bs, enough that 6 could be in the F-35 training squadron, and 15 could be undergoing depot level work and you would still have 48 available.

[Corsair1963]

Don't know how the "UK Public" have a say in this meme you have invented about UK not getting their complement of F-35Bs for CVFs. Then 'the thing' about F-35As is borderline crystal ball stuff at this point. One needs to be patient. FFsake the CVFs with F-35Bs are not operational. I'll wager when QE demonstrates usefulness in whatever scenario, all will be OK.

On top of that, typical load out for the QE is something like 24 F-35B with a variety of other aircraft. Yes, it could go higher, but it is unlikely to ever exceed 48 for any operation. Even if half of the F-35 force were Bs and half were As, you would still have 69 Bs, enough that 6 could be in the F-35 training squadron, and 15 could be undergoing depot level work and you would still have 48 available.

To support four squadrons of F-35B's for two Carrier Air Groups. You would need at a minimum 72 aircraft. Plus, that doesn't include the OCU.

Plus, those four F-35B Squadrons are "adequate" for peace time. Yet, the UK needs "six" squadrons for wartime. (three per carrier) Which, would take all of the 138 to fulfill that mission....

[Corsair1963]

Don't know how the "UK Public" have a say in this meme you have invented about UK not getting their complement of F-35Bs for CVFs. Then 'the thing' about F-35As is borderline crystal ball stuff at this point. One needs to be patient. FFsake the CVFs with F-35Bs are not operational. I'll wager when QE demonstrates usefulness in whatever scenario, all will be OK.

It's been a tremendous struggle to get adequate funding for the Royal Navy in the first place. If, the public thinks the US will make up for any shortcomings. I see little pressure from the public to do otherwise....

So, if the Treasury and Government Leadership. Doesn't feel pressure from the public to increase Defense Spending. Then why would it??? Especially, when the USN just told the world that Co-Deployments with American Assets would likely become the new "norm"!



Honestly, I don't see how some don't get this???

[spazsinbad]

Probably NON-'mericans don't get your meme because we don't have the same world view. Capiche? You state that 'public opinion' sways UK politicians. I disagree. Public opinion does not apply pressure anywhere except in a revolution. The UK politicians will do what they think is best which SOMETIMES may seem to agree with public opinion whereas MONEY rools.

LACK of money has meant the UK is slow rolling the rollout of the F-35B aboard CVFs - USMC is happy to fill in the gaps.

[marsavian]

Agreed, UK public is generally indifferent to military spending apart from general pride in having Carriers again with updated supersonic stealthy jump jets. More importantly it's what the politicians want and there is generally bi-partisan agreement on the F-35 buy due to the participation/jobs aspect of it and its leading technology. That may change if a more homespun Tempest is in production but for the moment that is the case. As for the QE Carriers providing for extra USMC F-35B well that may not be a bad thing for NATO overall if currently there are more of them than America LHD class to transport them to combat via sea.

[spazsinbad]

A US Marine F-35 Squadron Will Deploy on a British Aircraft Carrier in 2021
07 May 2019 Gina Harkins

"...The U.S. defense secretary and U.K. defense minister agreed that the two militaries would deploy together aboard the new high-tech carrier when it first came online, he said. The aircraft carrier is the first of two in the United Kingdom's new Queen Elizabeth-class line, and its flight deck will include aircraft from the Royal Navy and U.S. Marine Corps, he [Lt. Gen. Steven Rudder, head of Marine Corps aviation] said.

"Think about this carrier where you're going to have a squadron of U.K. F-35Bs; a [detachment] of U.S. Marine Corps F-35Bs. You're going to have helicopters ... as well as the Royal Marines aboard," Rudder said.

The deployment will mark a "tremendous milestone in the progression of maritime interoperability with the U.K.," said Capt. Christopher Harrison, a Marine Corps spokesman at the Pentagon. The carrier will conduct pre-deployment training in U.K. waters in fall 2020 and spring 2021 ahead of its official mission, he said. That training will culminate in a certification exercise prior to the deployment, Harrison added....

...Rudder said the squadron that will participate in the historic deployment has been chosen, but Marine officials declined to name it while details about how many aircraft will participate are worked out between the two countries. The Marines are working with their U.K. partners as they prepare for the mission, Rudder said.

"They're working together ... on all of the things that go into making sure supportability is right," he said. "It has been a pleasure working with our U.K. partners on this. I think it's going to be a very interesting data point and operational success."..."

Source: https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... -2021.html

[spazsinbad]

Looking ahead – US Marine Corps aircraft to embark on board HMS Queen Elizabeth [best read at source]
13 May 2019 SaveTheRoyalNavy

"Last week the US Marine Corps formally announced what had been known for some time, that their F-35B jets will join the 2021 Carrier Strike Group (CSG21) operational deployment on board HMS Queen Elizabeth. Here we look at the implications and benefits of this joint operating arrangement.

Hurry up and wait
Shallow analysis might suggest “the threadbare Royal Navy is relying on Uncle Sam to fill up the decks of their empty aircraft carrier.” This would be to misunderstand the way carrier aviation is being regenerated and the benefits to all concerned. In an ideal world, the aircraft (and ships) would be delivered faster, but even if there was the production capacity, the fast jet training system would be unable to produce a large number of qualified pilots in time. These are not cheap aircraft and the defence budget cannot afford to buy them in larger quantities. Purchase of aircraft is negotiated in multi-$Billion ‘Lots’ with participating nations getting an agreed number of aircraft from each Lot. Customers should also see the unit cost of each airframe declining over time as production becomes more efficient. A prolonged but steady build-up of F-35 strength is the only realistic way to assemble the force and not a failure by MoD planners.

The British-owned F-35B force currently stands at 17 aircraft and, as a Tier-1 partner in the project, the government is committed to buying 48 by the end of 2024 (what happens beyond that point is a thorny issue). The first 9 aircraft of 617 Squadron have arrived at RAF Marham and pilots are accumulating flying hours. They will make their first overseas deployment to RAF Akritori in Cyprus shortly as they train and prepare to embark on HMS Queen Elizabeth for her Westlant19 deployment in the Autumn.

Another F35 will be delivered to the UK fleet in 2019 followed by 3 next year, 6 in 2021, 8 in 2022, and 7 in 2023. When HMS Queen Elizabeth sails for CSG21, 617 Squadron should have at least 12 aircraft. (Precisely how many aircraft will constitute the frontline strength of a UK F-35 squadron remains vague). Three other aircraft are in the Operational Evaluation Unit based in the US and the remainder allocated the Operational Conversion Unit (training squadron). By 2023 there will be enough aircraft to stand up the second frontline squadron and 809 NAS will be born.

Exercise Crimson Flag will be held at RAF Marham in Autumn 2020 which will see USMC and UK F-35Bs conduct synthetic live combat training together. RN helicopters will also participate as the ‘CV Wing’ starts to come together. (The CVW was formerly referred to as the ‘Tailored Air Group’ but has since been Americanised). USMC jets are also likely to spend some time aboard QE in 2020 before the operational deployment the following year.

When HMS Queen Elizabeth sails for CSG21, expect to see 24 F-35Bs and rotary wing assets on board. 12 aircraft from 617 Squadron will be joined by 12 US Marine Corps aircraft, probably from either VMFA-211 or VMFA-122. (Full strength USMC squadrons will typically number 16 aircraft, but may deploy in smaller numbers as needed – the Wasp class LHD assault ships normally embark between 6 – 9 F35s.). The USMC says it plans to eventually permanently designate one of its squadrons to provide aircraft for deployment on Royal Navy carriers….

…In it together
Lt. Gen. Steven Rudder, head of Marine Corps aviation, commenting on the plan said: “It’s going to be a wonderful new way, and will potentially offer a new norm of doing coalition combined allied operations with a maritime partner.” The USMC are clearly enthusiastic about flying from the QEC carriers. The obvious advantage for the US is access to another forward-deployed platform, reducing pressure on USN ships. The QEC are very much larger than the assault ships of the ‘gator navy’ and the USMC will benefit from far more hangar and flight deck space, together with more comfortable accommodation and planning areas. Being up close for a sustained period on operations may also provide both parties with inspiration and ideas about how to improve procedures learned from each other. The innovative design and manning arrangements of the QEC may also have lessons for the USN that is struggling to maintain its colossally expensive conventional aircraft carrier fleet.

For the US to deploy an entire squadron on a foreign vessel for a sustained period is described as ‘historic’ and a demonstration of the very deep trust that exists particularly between the US Navy and Royal Navy. Occasional cross-decking aircraft between carriers of different nations is not new but this has usually been for short periods and not with the intention to be permanently deployed and to fight alongside each other if required. In 2007 HMS Illustrious embarked 14 USMC AV-8B Harriers for several weeks and there is a long-standing relationship that continues to develop. As far back as 2015 the RN had arranged with the USMC that their aircraft would operate from the decks of the carriers then under construction….

...The size of the RN means that to safely deploy the QEC carriers into areas of significant threat will require reliance on allied escorts. The idea of a fully independent British carrier group may be something of a mirage and the joint air wing is just a part of the new reality. To be trusted by the US to embark and integrate its aircraft on the QEC carriers is a great compliment and a sensible way forward that should mostly prove mutually beneficial to all concerned."

Source: https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/lookin ... elizabeth/

[zerion]

Senior military condemn 'ridiculous' decision to sack captain of Navy's biggest warship for using his official Ford Galaxy in his spare time

Senior military staff yesterday condemned as ‘ridiculous’ the decision to sack the captain of the Royal Navy’s most powerful ship for misusing its official car.

Despite a glittering career, Nick Cooke-Priest was removed from the helm of HMS Queen Elizabeth when it emerged he had driven the Ford Galaxy on personal trips...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rship.html

[steve2267]

Coulda been worse... he coulda phoned ahead and arranged for 10, ahem, escorts to meet him at a hotel...

'Course... ten is probably too many for a Ford Galaxy...

[spazsinbad]

British F-35Bs Leave For Their FIRST Overseas Deployment | Forces TV https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y93Vn633z-M

[spazsinbad]

Nice pictures of the TWINS: HMS Queen Elizabeth completes dry docking period and leaves Rosyth 21 May 2019

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/hms-qu ... es-rosyth/

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/wp-con ... 14x487.jpg

[spazsinbad]

RAF F-35s Deploy for Lightning Dawn
25 May 2019 Jon Lake

"The Royal Air Force has sent its Lockheed Martin F-35B Lightning IIs on their first overseas deployment since their delivery to the first operational unit—No. 617 Squadron “Dambusters”—at RAF Marham during June and August 2018.

The RAF declared Initial Operating Capability (Land) about two weeks before the planned date of December 31, 2018. Exactly how the RAF has defined IOC was not stated, but it was acknowledged that it entailed having a certain number of aircraft ready to conduct day/night air interdiction, close air support, suppression of enemy air defenses, defensive counter air, and offensive counter air missions.

Six F-35Bs were deployed from Marham in Norfolk on May 21. The squadron operates three aircraft from LRIP Lot 8 and six from LRIP Lot 9, and it was the latter aircraft, with Block 3F software, that were deployed. They were flown to RAF Akrotiri, on the island of Cyprus, from where they are expected to spend six weeks operating as part of Exercise Lightning Dawn.

Two separate waves, each comprising three aircraft, departed Marham, with each trio supported by an Airbus A330 MRRT Voyager tanker/transport from No. 10 Squadron at RAF Brize Norton. The Voyagers transited alongside the F-35Bs, refueling them several times en route and carrying squadron personnel and some support equipment.

Though there has been speculation that the deployment would allow UK and U.S. F-35s to fly together during operational missions against Daesh, Group Captain Ian Townsend, the station commander of RAF Marham, said that Exercise Lightning Dawn was a training exercise. He dismissed suggestions that the aircraft might participate in the UK’s air operations against Daesh in Syria and Iraq as part of Operation Shader, saying that there were no plans for the F-35Bs to drop live weapons (even for training) during their deployment in Cyprus.

Instead, Lightning Dawn will allow the RAF to examine all aspects of deploying and operating the F-35B from a new location, including logistics, maintenance, and sustainment, and will provide invaluable experience before the type’s planned first operational carrier deployment later this year. Townsend pointed out that the training exercise would allow personnel from both the RAF and the Royal Navy to gain vital experience in maintaining and flying the aircraft in an unfamiliar environment. While the Lightning Force is owned and operated by the RAF, it is jointly manned by both Royal Air Force and Royal Navy personnel.

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... tning-dawn