UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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talkitron

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Unread post08 Mar 2021, 13:16

Corsair1963 wrote:I could see the UK going it alone with Tempest Program. If, they had adequate funding. Yet, when have they ever had "adequate funding"???


Err, they are curtailing F-35Bs and Wedgetails and are retiring older air frames, all part of a plan that frees up money for Tempest. Tempest is happening, either with Italy and Sweden or without. There seems to be friction in the France, Germany and Spain alliance, so all sorts of reconfigurations are possible.
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ricnunes

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Unread post08 Mar 2021, 15:38

loke wrote:Incredible if the UK really ends up with only 48 F-35 -- Finland will then most likely end up with more F-35 than tier-1 partner nation the UK! (I am quite sure Finland will buy more than 50, due to the low unit cost of the F-35A).


If the "UK really ends up with only 48 F-35" these would be F-35Bs. One of the plans (and apparently the most spoken plan) is that the UK would only buy 48 F-35Bs but the remaining 90 from the 138 planned would be F-35As instead of F-35Bs (which would potentially save Billions).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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steve2267

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Unread post08 Mar 2021, 17:41

If the UK does not have the wherewithall to follow through on the purchase of 138 F-35's, of which they are a Tier-1 partner nation with 15% of the production, and rather switches horses midstream to a new wunderjet, a notional 6th generation aircraft, when they have not produced a 5th generation jet entirely on their own... then I question their ability to create Tempest on their own, or even with partners (given the inevitable squabbling). Even freeing up money, by cancelling the complete F-35 buy, to be able to afford Tempest, there will be inevitable cost overruns and technical glitches, all of which are expensive. How much did it cost to develop the F-35? And Britain can afford this by cancelling 90 F-35's? Pure folly. I will be very surprised should Tempest ever fly.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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loke

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Unread post08 Mar 2021, 17:51

steve2267 wrote:If the UK does not have the wherewithall to follow through on the purchase of 138 F-35's, of which they are a Tier-1 partner nation with 15% of the production, and rather switches horses midstream to a new wunderjet, a notional 6th generation aircraft, when they have not produced a 5th generation jet entirely on their own... then I question their ability to create Tempest on their own, or even with partners (given the inevitable squabbling). Even freeing up money, by cancelling the complete F-35 buy, to be able to afford Tempest, there will be inevitable cost overruns and technical glitches, all of which are expensive. How much did it cost to develop the F-35? And Britain can afford this by cancelling 90 F-35's? Pure folly. I will be very surprised should Tempest ever fly.

I am sure it will fly. As for capabilities, we just have to wait 15-20 years and see :)
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Unread post08 Mar 2021, 19:48

loke wrote:I am sure it will fly. As for capabilities, we just have to wait 15-20 years and see :)

  • English Electric Lightning first flight 1954
  • Hawker Harrier first flight 1967
  • SEPECAT Jaguar first flight 1968
  • BAE Systems Hawk first flight 1974
  • Eurofighter Typhoon first flight 1994

Did I miss any other tactical aircraft produced by the UK (or of which they had a major hand)? It's already been 27 years since first flight of the Typhie. Another 10-15 before Tempest allegedly flies? Maybe if they just try to create a tactical aircraft with more or less existing technology. But no! The UK is going to leapfrog 5th gen and indigenously produce a 6th gen aircraft complete with VLO technology, optionally manned, swarming, directed energy and hypersonic weapons? Color me extremely skeptical. They are on the wrong trajectory to be successful creating a 6th gen aircraft on their own. IMHO.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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jetblast16

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Unread post08 Mar 2021, 19:57

canis-et-umbra_4909679094_o.png
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Unread post08 Mar 2021, 20:17

steve2267 wrote:
Did I miss any other tactical aircraft produced by the UK (or of which they had a major hand)?


I like the way the Tornado is forgotten already! :D

Post war?

Hawker Hunter
Blackburn Buccaneer
Folland Gnat
Supermarine Swift
Hawker Sea Hawk
EE Canberra
Sea Vixen
Gloster Javalin
Gloster meteor
Vampire thing
ruining the area ruling on the F-4K/M (or not )

probably others
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Unread post08 Mar 2021, 21:03

steve2267 wrote:If the UK does not have the wherewithall to follow through on the purchase of 138 F-35's, of which they are a Tier-1 partner nation with 15% of the production, and rather switches horses midstream to a new wunderjet, a notional 6th generation aircraft, when they have not produced a 5th generation jet entirely on their own...


I really wish that people would stop calling the Tempest and also the NGF a 6th gen fighter aircraft. They will be 5th gen fighter aircraft or at best 5.5th gen.

Remember when everyone else accused LM when it called the F-35 a 5th gen fighter aircraft as being a "marketing stunt"??
Well that's actually and exactly what BAE is doing with the Tempest and Dassault/Airbus are doing with the NGF.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post08 Mar 2021, 21:16

8) "...PROBABLY OTHERS..."? :shock: Poor old Venom/Sea Venom variants. <sigh> A follow-on from the 'Vampire thing'. :roll:

A few other 'SEA' aircraft are missing from the list but even I have forgotten them or did not know of their existence.
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Unread post08 Mar 2021, 21:25

steve2267 wrote: They are on the wrong trajectory to be successful creating a 6th gen aircraft on their own. IMHO.


How do we measure success?

The Tornado ADV for example - based on the assumption that bombers would never have escorts - same assumption that brought you the Vic formation, Blackburn Roc, and Bolton Paul Defiant.

Cool lets save a few pounds by not having any defensive systems as well. Then in 1991 - "but we really felt we were doing something CAPing 400 miles from the Iraqi border"


If it happens it is 100% political nothing else - definitely not down to lack of money as the government will be trying to make out a lot over these next few years.
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Unread post08 Mar 2021, 21:28

spazsinbad wrote:8) "...PROBABLY OTHERS..."? :shock: Poor old Venom/Sea Venom variants. <sigh> A follow-on from the 'Vampire thing'. :roll:

A few other 'SEA' aircraft are missing from the list but even I have forgotten them or did not know of their existence.


LOL you flew them didn't you.

I have found the Supermarine Scimitar! - although probably best if I lost it again.
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Unread post08 Mar 2021, 23:26

Yes I did fly the dual seat trainer Vampire in RAAF advanced training then ashore in RAN FAA Nowra; and the Mk.53 Sea Venom but not from our only aircraft carrier because by then 1969-70 the Venoms had been replaced by A4G Skyhawks.

I was going to research/make a list of the missing BRIT fighters from the sea but then decided to go water garden instead.

One can bad mouth the early Brit Sea Borne Jet Fighters however there were some VERY AWFUL early USN - CUTLASSes???
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steve2267

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Unread post08 Mar 2021, 23:54

Basher, thank you for correcting me on all the aircraft I left out. How could I forget the Tornado? :doh:

Did I forget any others since, say, 1970?

  • Panavia Tornado first flight 1974.

Since the first flight of the Tornado, forty-six years ago, Britain has only had a hand in developing the Typhoon. Cutting her air arms short to finance the fanciful notion of the Tempest is folly IMO.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post09 Mar 2021, 03:27

An example of the BRIT Paper WIND UP or in this case STEAM UP? ones nether regions and all of it behind a PAYWALL! :doh:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 ... -aircraft/
Meanwhile there are more SOBER assessments of the call for info that's for UAVs perchance to dream given circumstances.
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Unread post09 Mar 2021, 03:34

Hint about the above STEAM from 'mainstimwhopperwhalve': http://alert5.com/2021/03/09/britain-as ... more-87363
Britain asking industry for ideas on “aircraft launch and recovery systems” that can be “fitted to a suitable ship from 2023”
09 Mar 2021 ALERT5

"According to The Telegraph, the Royal Navy is approaching the industry for ideas about future “aircraft launch and recovery systems” that can be “sufficiently technically mature to be fitted to a suitable ship from 2023.”

The launch system can either be powered by steam or eletromagnetic power and handle an aircraft weighing 25 tonnes. The recovery system must handle 21 tonnes.

Gareth Corfield, a defence specialist, said that the proposed system is not able to launch the F-35C and is likely to be “an early look at how the Tempest optionally manned aircraft could be used by the Royal Navy.”

“Timing is key and the 2023 installation date might fall towards the end of HMS Queen Elizabeth’s first major refit after her South China Sea deployment later this year.”

Source: http://alert5.com/2021/03/09/britain-as ... more-87363

UK issues RFI for shipborne aircraft launch and recovery equipment
02 Mar 2021 Richard Scott

"Almost a decade after dropping plans to introduce catapults and arrestor gear on one of the Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers, the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) is seeking to be appraised on shipborne assisted launch and arrested recovery systems applicable to both crewed and uncrewed air vehicles...."

Source: https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... -equipment
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