UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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quicksilver

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Unread post30 Nov 2021, 21:26

Although a bit out of focus, this is a fair depiction of launch sequences. Note that after pilot selection of STOVL conversion (note AAI and ULF doors opening) and transition to Mode 4 (you can hear the LF spool up w clutch engagement), the pilot advances power slightly before full power is selected and the brakes are released. Doubt they spend any time at full throttle until brake release cuz they’ll skid the tires (which they generally don’t want to do given already limited tire life).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lu7ZUVXs6Ec
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spazsinbad

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Unread post01 Dec 2021, 01:27

'QS' thanks. You have reminded me that long ago test pilots described STOing - this is one of probably a few more:
"...“Then you push the throttle about halfway up the throttle slide into a detent position at about 34% engine thrust request. It sits there and you check the engine gauges: if the readings are okay you slam the throttle to either Mil or Max position and then release the brakes simultaneously. Pushing through to max is like an afterburner detent. But it’s not an afterburner – you can’t go to afterburner in mode four. “It’s a very fast acceleration. The closest we would spot from the bow is 400 feet, so about 175 feet before we would actually start rotating the aeroplane [at the STO rotation line]; so very, very quick.” Maj. Rusnok Test Pilot July 2014 AIR International
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=56610&p=434653&hilit=Rusnok+flash#p434653


F-35B STO & CVF Ski Jump INFO 30NOV17 PRN pp172.pdf http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=26013 (11Mb)
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Unread post01 Dec 2021, 18:48

Marine F-35B Squadron Completes Historic Deployment on HMS Queen Elizabeth
30 Nov 2021 Richard R. Burgess

"ARLINGTON, Va. — The U.S. Marine Corps F-35B squadron that deployed on board the U.K. Royal Navy aircraft carrier departed the ship last week for Naval Station Rota, Spain, from which the squadron would return to its home base of Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, Arizona.

Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 211 (VMFA-211) — known as the Wake Island Avengers — completed a six-month deployment on board HMS Queen Elizabeth to the Western Pacific, Indian Ocean, and Mediterranean Sea as a unit of the U.K. Carrier Strike Group.

According to a spokesperson of the HMS Queen Elizabeth, VMFA-211 and its Royal Air Force/Royal Navy counterpart, the Dambusters of 617 Squadron, flew 1,278 sorties, “clocking up more than 2,200 hours in skies around the globe. They also carried out 44 missions in support of the U.S.-led Operation Inherent Resolve — conducting air strikes against Daesh [Islamic State].”..."

Photo: "U.S. Marines with Marine Fighter Attack Squadron (VMFA) 211 conduct pre-flight checks on an F-35B Lightning II on the flight deck of HMS Queen Elizabeth in the Mediterranean Sea on Nov. 24. VMFA-211 aircraft landed at Naval Station Rota as the first stop on their redeployment to Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, Arizona. U.S. MARINE CORPS / 1st Lt. Zachary Bodner" https://seapowermagazine.org/wp-content ... maller.jpg


Source: https://seapowermagazine.org/marine-f-3 ... elizabeth/
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Unread post05 Dec 2021, 11:50

Crashed British F-35B found on sea bed
01 Dec 2021 George Allison

"The Ministry of Defence now knows the location of the F-35B that crashed on take-off from HMS Queen Elizabeth....

...Britain and America are currently engaged in operations to salvage an F-35B which ditched into the ocean after taking off from HMS Queen Elizabeth. It is understood that while the point at which the jet entered the sea was known, the aircraft’s wings made it glide underwater for a reasonable distance before settling to the bottom of the sea bed in a new location....

...Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said: “There is an ongoing operation to recover the F-35 jet...."

Source: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/crashed ... n-sea-bed/
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Unread post07 Dec 2021, 21:38

Photo essay – the Carrier Strike Group on the homeward leg
06 Dec 2021 NavyLookOut

"This photo and video essay cover the activities of the Carrier Strike Group on the final part of the 2021 deployment that took them from the Gulf of Oman, through the Suez Canal into the Mediterranean and back to UK waters....

...The lost jet
On 16th November HMS Queen Elizabeth passed through the Suez Canal and into the Mediterranean. While conducting routine flying operations on the 17th November a UK F-35 jet crashed on takeoff. Leaked footage shows the pilot ejected at the end of the ski ramp as the aircraft lacked sufficient airspeed to get airborne. Fortunately, the pilot survived and landed back on the ship under parachute and did not get wet. He has subsequently flown ashore for precautionary medical checks. Various unofficial sources report that the cause was a protective foam engine blank that was sucked into the jet, causing the loss of power. One of the blanks became dislodged and was blown out of sight into the central void in front of the engine. During pre-flight checks, the assumption was made that both covers had been removed when in fact one was lodged in the aircraft out of view. This version of events is unverified and the outcome of the investigation should be awaited before making judgements.

It has subsequently emerged that unfortunately, the aircraft lost was one of the newest in the UK fleet – ZM152. She first flew in June 2019 and would have had significantly lower Block IV upgrade requirements than older airframes. In co-operation with NATO allies, the MoD SALMO is taking the lead in the efforts to recover the wreck of the aircraft believed to be in around 1,500m of water in the Levantine Sea, South of Cyprus. (See previous article). The accident did not have a major impact on the CSG programme which progressed as planned in the Mediterranean but the loss of a precious £100M jet will inevitably slightly overshadow the deployment which has been otherwise highly successful....

...The remaining CSG participants will return home to the UK later this week after seven months away and covering around 50,000 nautical miles."

Source: https://www.navylookout.com/photo-essay ... eward-leg/
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Unread post07 Dec 2021, 21:43

Not sure if this video has not been posted before? I have looked but will look again....

Italian F-35Bs operating from HMS Queen Elizabeth during cross-decking exercises with ITS Cavour
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=643G2bmOvfc

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Unread post07 Dec 2021, 22:50

Too many leaps of logic in the reporting…

“…unofficial sources report that the cause was a protective foam engine blank that was sucked into the jet, causing the loss of power.”

Ok; at what point in the launch sequence from preflight to ejection did this occur; did the blank enter the LF or the main engine; what was the source of the blank; and, what was the mechanism by which it was transported and found its way into the propulsion system?

“One of the blanks became dislodged and was blown out of sight into the central void in front of the engine.”

Dislodged from where? How was such an event determined after the fact, but not before (such that loss of the aircraft might have been avoided)?

“During pre-flight checks, the assumption was made that both covers had been removed when in fact one was lodged in the aircraft out of view.”

And so how was the blank not sucked into the engine during start-up, taxi, or engine run-up?

While they provided a bit of a disclaimer (ref ‘unofficial’ sources), Im not buying what the reporting is selling.
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steve2267

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Unread post07 Dec 2021, 23:07

At 0:45 of the above video, the Bee launches with one aircraft parked portside in the distance. How many portside tie down locations can be occupied and Her Majesties carriers still conduct launch ops?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post08 Dec 2021, 00:08

Try this on for size —
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Unread post08 Dec 2021, 00:19

OH THE HORROR! One day an official report will be released one hopes whilst the news below will make things easier.
HMS Queen Elizabeth: Sunken F-35 jet is raised from sea bed
07 Dec 2021 Larisa Brown

"The wreckage of an F-35 has been recovered from the sea bed in a delicate seven-day operation involving vessels from Britain, Italy and America, as a member of the military was arrested for leaking footage about the crash. Defence sources were “confident” that there was no danger or compromise to the sensitive equipment on the £120 million F-35B Lightning II jet amid concerns that other nations could seek to recover it....

It is understood the arrested man [VIDEO LEAKER] was a member of the crew on the aircraft carrier and has been flown back to the UK. It is unclear whether he is in the Royal Navy or RAF.….

It has taken nearly three weeks for Britain to pull together the necessary experts to lift the wreckage to the surface. Defence sources said that they were “pleasantly surprised at how quickly the recovery took”. It is understood the conditions were particularly challenging because of stormy weather.…" [NUNsubcriby]

Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hms- ... -xn0dhfp9x
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Unread post08 Dec 2021, 00:35

quicksilver wrote:Try this on for size —


Thanks for that graphic, Quick. But it seems to me that either the Knuckle, Fly1, Fly2, or Fly3 would need to be clear to conduct flight ops? If the aircraft taking off ran into problems and had to return immediately, I am guessing one would not want the returning aircraft conducting a vertical landing return over the top of the Knuckle, Fly1, Fly2, or Fly3?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post08 Dec 2021, 00:38

steve2267 wrote:At 0:45 of the above video, the Bee launches with one aircraft parked portside in the distance. How many portside tie down locations can be occupied and Her Majesties carriers still conduct launch ops?

For SRVL there is the diagram here: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=20304&p=403704&hilit=port#p403704 I would suggest that after the HILL?AFB engine fire on start up with a strong tailwind component that the BEEs seen in the graphic would be lined up 90 degrees left so that the intakes were in WOD. That way a quick start could be taken without having to move the aircraft again. Always conjecture until it all happens. http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=22502

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Unread post08 Dec 2021, 01:41

Thanks Spaz. In that diagram, clearly FLY4 has to be vacated for SVRL.

When I was posing my question, though, I was working from the point of view that SVRL has not yet been approved, and we know not if it ever will be. (We think it will be, but nothing for certain yet, as last I recall.) Therefore, a Bee will have to come to a stop portside of the ship, translate laterally right, then drop down as we have become used to watching. In that case, it would seem one would not want to be translating overtop of other Bees. Hence my query.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post08 Dec 2021, 01:48

Well now for the sake of conjecture one may guess that in the event SRVL becomes the de facto recovery standard then using the VL will be an emergency recovery method? Thusly IF all the aircraft are onboard arranged as seen in the diagram above then NO ONE is going to VL except as per the astern approach.

Now it is possible to VL further forward closer to the RAMP if required - or to APPROACH for a VL from directly astern. This is mentioned somewhere. There are two VL approach paths: from astern on port side when opposite the VL spot STOP then translate over to VL spot. OR to come directly astern over the VL spot STOP etc. I think 'QS' has said this also here?
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Unread post08 Dec 2021, 02:04

While we are on the subject...

I do believe in testing the aircraft, and in testing / declaring a new ship class ready for F-35B flight ops (e.g. Cavour), vertical lands were made from a direct stern approach.

But I do not recall ever seeing video here (or elsewhere) of Bees making approaches from directly astern to landing. Is that because coming to a stop in flight, portside of the ship is safer and/or gives better visual/spatial awareneess?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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