UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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quicksilver

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Unread post10 Sep 2021, 22:50

johnwill wrote:Thanks to quicksilver and spaz for informative answers. The idea of using "Power Nozzle Thrust" seems counter productive to me. Wouldn't the small gain in reverse thrust for braking be more than offset by the thrust vertical component unloading the main gear and reducing wheel braking capability?


I am unfamiliar with the specific mechanization of F-35 nozzle braking. Obviously, the propulsion system nozzle geometry is much different but there are some potentialities for F-35 one might consider by understanding Harrier. In Harrier, power nozzle braking (PNB) is done by moving the nozzle control lever to the ‘braking stop’ position which points the nozzles 17.5 degrees forward of the vertical position. PNB is only used in conventional landings (CL), fixed nozzle slow landings (FNSL), and variable nozzle slow landings (VNSL). With the nozzles pointed forward, there is an RPM limit that one must observe in order to keep sufficient weight on wheels for control and braking during rollout, and to avoid potentially swapping ends. If you lift all of the aircraft weight behind the nose wheel (with too much rpm) and thereby load that nose wheel with all of that landing inertia, it doesn’t take much directional instability to cause the jet to swap ends. There is also a minimum ground speed that one must observe in PNB so as to avoid/minimize the potential for engine FOD.

The main landing gear on Harrier support about 50% of the weight of the jet; that percentage is much higher in F-35. Thus, one consequence is that the brakes are much more effective for stopping the jet, particularly when it is touching down at 25-35 knots of ground speed relative to the ship.
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Unread post10 Sep 2021, 23:20

Perhaps SRVL braking method has changed, with nozzle not being used? SRVL under test to this day, with few approaches. Note the NOZZLE ICON - left side btm - in the first video. The nozzle goes to 90deg as engine goes to idle under brakes.

The 2nd last video in slow motion unfortunately does not show the 'on deck braking' part and quality is not so good. :(

F-35B SRVL Warton Shipborne Rolling Vertical Land Sim ZOOM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8M7RcWuZMs



First F-35B SRVL 'Wizzer' Wilson HMS Queen Elizabeth Oct 2018 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0eJdHfBhzQ

SRVL Touchdown CVF Simulation + One Eighth Slow Motion Added https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILU0IpftkS8

F-35B SRVL Touchdown Only Port Side QUEEN ELIZABETH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejVKzhZSQWs
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quicksilver

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Unread post10 Sep 2021, 23:35

“Perhaps SRVL braking method has changed, with nozzle not being used? SRVL under test to this day, with few approaches. Note the NOZZLE ICON - left side btm - in the first video. The nozzle goes to 90deg as engine goes to idle under brakes.”

I believe one must pull the LHI (throttle) aft out of the detent in order to command nozzle positions forward of 90 degrees. But, as you suggest, I doubt it’s needed at such slow touchdown speeds.
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Unread post11 Sep 2021, 00:19

Yeah. The AvWEAK story is now 3 years old so the text may refer to an even older potential test method for SRVL braking on deck using the nozzle also for braking. Only a few (I'll check) actual test SRVLs to braking stop have been carried out.
HMS Queen Elizabeth completes F-35B First of Class flight trials
05 Nov 2018 Andrew McLaughlin

"...The trials saw the two aircraft conduct 98 ski-jump launches, 96 vertical landings, and 2 shipborne rolling vertical landings, and two inert GBU-12 weapons were also released during one of the flights...."

Source: https://adbr.com.au/hms-queen-elizabeth ... ht-trials/
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Unread post15 Sep 2021, 12:49

Royal Navy aircraft carriers make history on simultaneous F-35B Lightning jet operations
15 Sep 2021 Royal Navy PR

"...Three UK F-35Bs from 207 Squadron are currently on board HMS Prince of Wales as she goes through the final demanding stages of becoming fully operational this autumn.

Pilots are carrying out carrier qualifications day and night to ensure they are ready for missions ahead, while the ship is going through the world-renowned Fleet Operational Sea Training (FOST) programme. This tests ships and personnel to the limit in order to qualify them for operations.

Later this month, HMS Prince of Wales will also take part in the largest military exercise in the UK, Joint Warrior, off the Scottish coast to test her ability to work alongside other naval, air force and army assets and as part of broader task group operations.

Commanding Officer, Captain Steve Higham, said: “It’s brilliant to see F35s operating from our flight deck and to have our friends and colleagues from the RAF and the Army on board with us.

“UK Carrier Strike is, at its heart, an inherently joint venture and one that is going fantastically well.

“We already see 207 Squadron as part of the HMS Prince of Wales team and they have brought alive our latest training package by simultaneously conducting F-35 pilot qualifications.

“HMS Prince of Wales is rapidly moving through the gears as the UK’s contingent strike carrier ahead of operations as the NATO command ship in 2022.”...

Photo: “HMS Prince of Wales is at sea with embarked F-35 Lightning jets from 207 Squadron” https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/-/media/ro ... ions/1.jpg


Source: https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... operations
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Unread post15 Sep 2021, 13:14

So do they have any traps on these carriers? They are big enough I'd think they could easily handle non-STOVL aircraft in a pinch.
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steve2267

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Unread post15 Sep 2021, 13:52

madrat wrote:So do they have any traps on these carriers? They are big enough I'd think they could easily handle non-STOVL aircraft in a pinch.


Are you asking if they have arresting gear? No, no they don't. You weren't asking if a non-STOVL / non-VTOL aircraft could land on QE or PoW, were you? Maybe a Cessna could land within her 850 some feet, but bringing a 20-40,000 lb aircraft to a stop in under 850' with breaks alone? I don't see that happening.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post15 Sep 2021, 14:11

'madrat' where did you get that notion of traps on the QE Class? There is an RFI for UAVs perhaps in the QE Class future.

Cats, traps and UAS – the Royal Navy considers options for carrier-launched drones 14 Apr 2021 NavyLookout
https://www.navylookout.com/cats-traps- ... ed-drones/

ASLO (yes I know) 09 Mar 2021: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=15969&p=451169&hilit=drones#p451169
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Unread post16 Sep 2021, 02:39

steve2267 wrote:
madrat wrote:So do they have any traps on these carriers? They are big enough I'd think they could easily handle non-STOVL aircraft in a pinch.


Are you asking if they have arresting gear? No, no they don't. You weren't asking if a non-STOVL / non-VTOL aircraft could land on QE or PoW, were you? Maybe a Cessna could land within her 850 some feet, but bringing a 20-40,000 lb aircraft to a stop in under 850' with breaks alone? I don't see that happening.

Without arresting gear I wouldn't even begin to think it practical.

I have little doubt that the F-35C would be well-suited for ramp takeoff.
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Unread post16 Sep 2021, 02:43

milosh wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Like I wrote earlier. Give the Lightnings to the RAF flyboys, let the RN chaueffer the USMC around on the QE and POW. I'm sure the Jarheads would love a couple of party barges. :drool: Woe to the RN aviators though. Maybe offer them a transfer to the USMC. :doh:


And why for RAF want F-35B? I mean if they want F-35 it would be A.

Ahem. Maybe because they work better off the RN carriers.
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Unread post16 Sep 2021, 03:03

madrat wrote:
milosh wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Like I wrote earlier. Give the Lightnings to the RAF flyboys, let the RN chaueffer the USMC around on the QE and POW. I'm sure the Jarheads would love a couple of party barges. :drool: Woe to the RN aviators though. Maybe offer them a transfer to the USMC. :doh:


And why for RAF want F-35B? I mean if they want F-35 it would be A.

Ahem. Maybe because they work better off the RN carriers.



More like that was their only option. Either share the F-35B with the RN or don't get the F-35 at all............. :|
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Unread post16 Sep 2021, 03:42

Difficult to follow any reasoning lately. Long ago when this thread started the F-35B was chosen, unchosen then CHOSEN again. Any talk about obtaining F-35As for the RAF has disappeared. Cats 'nFlaps are for UAVs perhaps (see stories above).
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Unread post16 Sep 2021, 07:10

spazsinbad wrote:Difficult to follow any reasoning lately. Long ago when this thread started the F-35B was chosen, unchosen then CHOSEN again. Any talk about obtaining F-35As for the RAF has disappeared. Cats 'nFlaps are for UAVs perhaps (see stories above).




Plenty of merit but few funds to do so....
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Unread post16 Sep 2021, 16:04

On faraway seas [6 page PDF of article attached]
Oct 2021 Alan Warnes

"Alan Warnes caught up with HMS Queen Elizabeth’s Carrier Air Wing Commander, Capt James ‘Blackers’ Blackmore, to uncover more about the carrier’s deployment....

...Flying day and night
Obviously, the air programme has been full on. The aim is to fly six out of seven days or nights – the day off providing people with a chance to rest. In the eastern Med, the carrier’s air wing flew every day from one port visit to the next with continuous air activity from the deck. “Since leaving Portsmouth [on May 1] until now [early August] we had flown 2,700 hours across the air wing – 1,500 hours of fixed-wing and 1,200 hours of rotary wing. That included 1,100 vertical landings on the carrier, and illustrates the tempo we have been undertaking since leaving.”

On the integration between the USMC and British F-35Bs, Capt Blackmore stressed: “Integration is absolutely seamless. We have spent a year and half working together – they have been over before, a couple of times, on Groupex and Strike Warrior. The only difference is the voice on the radio. The way we train, the way we fly, and the tactics are exactly the same. The launch just now had four -211 and four 617 Sqn jets doing integrated training and integrated ops – we work together as one.”...

...Strike Warrior final checks
On leaving Portsmouth on May 2, CSG21 headed towards the northwest of Scotland for Exercise Strike Warrior. “We trained right across the board for it, in what was part of Joint Warrior. That was our opportunity to do our final checks, showing we were fit and ready to get on our way to defend ourselves and also deliver a carrier strike capability in a carrier strike group,” Blackmore explained.

“No ASRAAM [advanced short-range, air-to-air missile] had ever been fired in the UK from an F-35 before we did it, let alone at sea [for Strike Warrior]. So, as well as dropping dual-mode 500lb Paveway IVs, the US dropped [500lb] GBU-12s [laser-guided bomb] and GBU-32 [Joint Direct Air Munitions, JDAMs]. It gave us a chance to test our weapons systems for whatever opposing forces throw our way – to fully end-to-end test the mag, from magazine, through weapon prep, onto flight deck on aircraft and on to the target.”...

...Sims at sea
It might surprise some to learn that HMS Queen Elizabeth houses four simulators on board, as well as deployed mission rehearsal trainers. The four F-35 simulators carry out high-end training and currency requirements – or, as the name suggests, missions rehearsal. “We are the only carrier in the world with a simulator embarked – these are really encouraging times. If [personnel] can’t fly the real aircraft, which isn’t very often, we put them in [the simulator].”

Two sea containers each house a pair of simulator cockpits that follow the design of the aircraft with helmet and sensors in each one. They have sea motion, too, but that isn't really needed here! If a pilot hasn’t flown for a while, they can regain their night, instrument flying or tactical training currency.

“The latter is important for me as the CAG”, Blackmore said, “because [we] can keep up with the currency training and, if the weather stops us flying, which hasn’t happened very often, we can get in [a simulator], or if we are alongside at port, we can maintain the currencies.”..."

Source: AirForces Monthly Issue 403 October 2021
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