Who benefits the most from stopping F-35 production?

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jessmo112

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Unread post07 May 2021, 01:21

A very good article at heritage: Russia and China Would Love to See the F-35 Fail. But It Won't

After all would Russia, which has seen fit to meddle with U.S. elections and mount sophisticated disinformation campaigns which undermine confidence in U.S. coronavirus vaccines, and even target U.S. armed forces, pass up an opportunity to sway U.S. public opinion against the F-35 jet? Why wouldn’t they target the world’s most advanced fighter weapons systems to minimize its fielding, while they figure out how to make their own stealth work?

What about China? They also created their own false narratives about the origins of the coronavirus, and western countries responses. They also tried to influence elections in Taiwan. While their J-20 stealth jet fighter looks a lot like the F-35 fighter, beneath the surface, it cannot compare. They’d love to see the U.S. stop buying F-35 jets, which would likely defeat J-20s by the vast margins in combat.

Not that it has to be one of America’s adversaries. Even a rival company could orchestrate a campaign to malign the F-35 jet fighter. But it could never be effective. People would see right through it. Wouldn’t they?

Maybe. Or maybe not. Americans generally trust what they read. A recent survey reveals false headlines fool adults 75 percent of the time.

So just how could the Russians, Chinese, or even a competitor company accomplish such dastardly work?

Proxies perhaps? Sounds like the movie Conspiracy Theory, right? But walk with me down this path for a moment.
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Unread post07 May 2021, 02:24

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Unread post12 May 2021, 05:48

Those who have read my posts know I am fond of the F-35 and have nothing but praise and admiration for its capabilities but lately I have become fearful of such superlative capabilities. After all, responsibility only exists when power is checked and balanced.


So I would not say that it is only our enemies who stand to gain.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post13 May 2021, 17:49

jessmo112 wrote:After all would Russia, which has seen fit to meddle with U.S. elections and mount sophisticated disinformation campaigns which undermine confidence in U.S. coronavirus vaccines, and even target U.S. armed forces, pass up an opportunity to sway U.S. public opinion against the F-35 jet? Why wouldn’t they target the world’s most advanced fighter weapons systems to minimize its fielding, while they figure out how to make their own stealth work?

What about China? They also created their own false narratives about the origins of the coronavirus, and western countries responses. They also tried to influence elections in Taiwan. While their J-20 stealth jet fighter looks a lot like the F-35 fighter, beneath the surface, it cannot compare. They’d love to see the U.S. stop buying F-35 jets, which would likely defeat J-20s by the vast margins in combat.

Not that it has to be one of America’s adversaries. Even a rival company could orchestrate a campaign to malign the F-35 jet fighter. But it could never be effective. People would see right through it. Wouldn’t they?

Maybe. Or maybe not. Americans generally trust what they read. A recent survey reveals false headlines fool adults 75 percent of the time.

So just how could the Russians, Chinese, or even a competitor company accomplish such dastardly work?

Proxies perhaps? Sounds like the movie Conspiracy Theory, right? But walk with me down this path for a moment.


Sigh.

A lot of the "disinformation" is in and of itself disinformation. Its being used as a rubber stamp to brand the opposition to any idea as heretics. I got to hear for years how anyone who questioned official narratives was a "Russian bot" I assure you, I am not a bot. A lot of things labeled propaganda are propaganda themselves. The truth is labeled propaganda, and the people who want to hide the truth create the propaganda to label it thusly.

accuse others of what you are doing, is a classic tactic

I hate to spoil our wonderful view of Utopia, but the US has problems. Big ones. And I am must more worried about threats from within than without. Russia and Chinas "sophisticated" disinformation campaigns have nothing on good old fashioned American propaganda. And thats a big part of this equation.

I'm 58 weeks into a "two week" lock down. pointing this out makes me a bad person who hates America of course. it means I "distrust science" and other ridiculousness for pointing out that what was told to me, was not what I was delivered.
Russia or China pointing out the same thing and drawing attention to it, also makes them evil. it wasn't "two weeks to flatten the curve" its lasted longer than two weeks, and the curve never flattened either. Cases only increased. pointing this out, makes you "anti science" I guess also anti math, and probably even anti time, since 58 weeks is not "2 weeks" How dare anyone do anything but accept exactly as they are told by higher authority -- yes thats the American dream isn't it? unquestionable authoritarian technocracy?

Its absolutely tragic that the people who point out the emperor is indeed naked, are branded "disinformation agents of other emperors"

don't believe your own lying eyes. Kids in cages are bad. Unless someone else does it. Then we rename them, and its wonderful again

Boeing has been as good as anyone else about anti-F-35 propaganda that undermines the West's ability to defend itself. More effective than China and Russia by far, why? well beyond their own propoganda they have lobbyists that have far more influence directly.

Putin never locked me down. My own government did that. Putin is not trying to destroy the constition, elected Americans and appointed judges are doing that. Xi never lobbied to get Super Hornets instead of F-35s or F-15EX, Boeing did that.

Even this article returns to this McCarthy style, red scare, cold war endeavor. Behind every shadow, a red. Anyone who says "that sounds like BS" is now a tool of the Russians.

You look at Tucker Carlson barely even tapping the military about women in combat and the US Military losing its mind to spew out propaganda against him. How dare he! questioning the standing army the founding fathers warned about? what does he think this is? a free country? Its not.

https://nypost.com/2021/03/15/official- ... r-carlson/

in a pure bit of irony, Carlson was actually proven right. His original point was that the military was more concerned with how it looked, rather than how it performed. And they decided to help him prove his point completely. Even contradicting their own findings and double standards on women in the military to jump down his throat-- indeed they do care more about image than performance.

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/y ... xperiment/

so in 2015 the Marines published a study, their own study that they did themselves that proved women can't do what the men can in combat

2021 Tucker agrees, the USMC loses its mind and calls him a "boomer" on twitter, for bringing up their own points. We live in a kind of hell, where actually repeating what the state says and agreeing with them, gets you labeled an enemy of the state.

Who cares about China at that point? So you'll have to forgive me, but when people start waving the "thats what Russia or China wants!" flag I start to tune out.

is CSAF a Russian bot for talking about retiring the F-22 and throwing the F-35 under the bus in late February?? I need to know. are the Marines tools of China for elevating women into combat after their own studies show that they are not as combat effective? I don't even know which government propoganda to faithfully regurgitate comrade, or I gladly would.

The wheat harvest is coming in well comrade commissar.

No! the wheat harvest is terrible this year comrade! we need to divest of our old outdated farm equipment and buy new farm equipment!

Oh oh yes comrade I am sorry, I heard the harvest was bad. my mistake

Yes and don't forget it, not wanting us to get new equipment must mean you favor bad harvests now and in the future!

The F-35 is the cornerstone, except when its not. We never got enough F-22s, except when I decide to retire them. thanks CSAF! very cool!
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Unread post14 May 2021, 13:43

Couldn't agree more on the women in combat/military more concerned about its image vs. capability.

The libs will continue to push this until it so erodes our capabilities that good men will die. We no longer put the best/most capable people on a project, we put one black man, hispanic woman etc. (fill in the minority blank).

And it's going to get people killed. Probably already has, and has been duly hushed up.

I will no longer spend a single cent with any company spouting PC nonsense and an openly (or even veiled) liberal agenda. And I damned sure wouldn't serve in any arm of the military which willingly puts me in harms way just so it can cowtow before congress and/or fill a quota..
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Unread post14 May 2021, 18:55

Breaking my serene lurkerdom to say two things:

My first point is that the political rhetoric on this forum is getting out of hand. I think a lot of us here need to calm down, take a couple deep breaths, go outside and touch grass.

It's getting bad, and frankly, given the generous expertise, experience, and insight of the contributors here, it's pretty embarrassing. I read these boards every single day, and it seems just as often, another interesting thread spirals into "off-topic", partisan political screeds about one side, or the other.

The mods do a good job of curtailing the most extreme off-topic, baiting, or simply inflammatory posts here, but I've noticed--in the past 3-6 months anyway--it seems the barometer has shifted noticeably, to such an extent where simply debunking the latest bogus news story, or (re-)contextualizing soundbites made by military/industry/political officials gets less traction than yet another dreary Two Minute Hate about Trump/Biden/Liberals/Leftists/Republicans/PC whatever.

Take that to Facebook; this isn't the place for it.

And what seems most crazy and ironical about it to me--is something mentioned before (I wish I could remember to credit), that we're in a period of relative "good" news for the F-35, that is, the vast majority of the F-35's more dishonest and shrill critics have been roundly debunked, have changed their tunes, (or in the instance of David Axe, simply fired), or have moved on to other flamebait. Such that now, Justin Trevithick (sp) and Tyler Rogoway are on the daily, bending over backwards to characterize the program as especially "controversial" or "troubled", Valerie Insinna is *gasp*, actually providing elucidating context for cherry-picked discrepancy/deficiency reports and mis-characterizations, and Dave Majumdar, well. I imagine Dave is somewhere off selling time-shares to septuagenarians or brass bands to small towns, but he's a special case.

Now, I was here for the David Axe/WarIsBoring Pure Fabrication Extravaganza; I was here for Pierre Sprey's outright lies about his own credentials, his past work, and the Can't Turn/Can't Climb/Can't Run Sensation. I remember fondly, Carlo Kopp and Bill Sweetman dynamiting their own careers and credibility over the Gripen and yes, I remember the spectacular Keypubs Meltdown after LM released its F-35 high-alpha maneuvering video, and the Even More Spectacular Keypubs Meltdown after Maj Hanche refuted years worth of their lies, fear-mongering, and propaganda.

It's all funny to think back on, but I remember the (legitimate) frustration and anxiety on these boards back then: a vital program was danger because a lot of well-connected were telling Straight-Up Lies. I get that; I saw it happen. But, this isn't 2015 anymore; all of the significant program milestones have been passed, and the preponderance of those writers have all shifted their positions, or have been thoroughly discredited. However, and I feel I should emphasize this: just because the liars have been proven to be liars, has not meant the lies will ever go away. I, myself up to a few months ago, got into slapfights with doofuses over about easily-searchable, debunked memes, and accused of being a "Lockheed shill" (I don't work for LM) or a "warmongering imperialist" etc. (I'm not in the military just yet :wink: ). It's frustrating, I get it. I also suspect that, the frustrating and hardships of lockdown are getting to people; it sucks and I don't want to minimize that. But at a certain point, you have to see the whole song-and-dance for what it is, and what it isn't, and I honestly think that perspective has been getting lost on this forum recently. It seems

It feels like I'm rambling a bit, but my second point proceeds from this. What you're reading about the F-35 in pseudo-journalistic outlets like The Drive, or Pop Mechanics, or even grandstanding from the HASC Congressman from Washington, it's Content: it's just material put out, to elicit a reaction. "Clickbait" is the term we millennials use to describe the primarily-commercial variety, but in other contexts, it's a kind of theatrical performance, which has little, if any bearing, on anything real.

Example One: in February, David Axe wrote that Gen Brown had declared the F-35 a "failure". This was of course, a lie; General Brown didn't say anything of the sort. The slightest bit of attention into the context--hell, or even the full paragraph of the text--proves that; I don't think I need to go into the particulars. Instead, it's the second-stage reaction I want to look at:

"But why would David Axe do this to us?" you may ask.

My point is, at this stage in the game, you should know. It's because his job isn't (wasn't--I keep forgetting he got fired) to inform and educate people by providing meaningful, if not occasionally ambiguous information context about highly technical and complex issues like aircraft design and procurement. Instead, his job is to create content; he's admitted as much on Twitter, and despite his attempts at damage-control distancing, his previous association with the National Interest Content Farm proves this. But I'm not violating my serene lurkerdom to bash David Axe; as my neighbors say, "a fruit that hangs that low is basically a potato".

But, importantly, It's also not because David Axe is an agent of the CCP, or is any kind of left-wing apparatchik working to Destroy America; he's just a(nother) hack with no scruples, who loves attention. I was a (minor) media professional in a past life; I can tell you all about how this game works, but it's more important that you know it is a Game, designed to make money by manipulating your limbic system. Refute and rebut, but please don't stoop to their level--gross politicization and conspiracy; it alienates other members of this thread, and generally degrades the discussion and analysis we all enjoy.

To reiterate: You do not need to react to every "story" that appears about the F-22 or F-35 in the media, and even less so, with wild, conspiratorial accusations It makes us look bad. And no, I'm not trying to call anyone out, or tell anyone what they should or shouldn't post; its not my call to do that. The mods do well enough at that. Instead, let's just temper our reactions with some perspective--how far this program has come, how desperate the attacks are getting, versus the real, undeniable progress and momentum of the Actual Program in service, versus the Imaginary Program, on the Interwebs.

Example Two: As Actual Journalists have reported, and XanderCrews has mentioned, this year's budget will have 85 F-35s, in line with the previous administration, and likely to be augmented by a corresponding amount in the coming months. Every version of the F-35 has now been deployed; AF/Marine/Navy tactical and operational syllabi are being reorganized. What that means, is nothing short of an Act of God is stopping F-35 production: not the Evil, Fascist, America-Wrecking Trump Administration, or the Evil, Communist, America-Wrecking Biden Administration, not Secret CCP Plant Air Force Gen CQ Brown, not CCP Plant The Honorable HASC Chairman Adam Smith, Whiz Kid Will Roper and his Quantum Century-Series NGAD, not Popular Mechanics, not The National Interest, Zombie Lenin, or even the Vengeful Ghost of David Axe's Career--again, no one is stopping F-35 production. It is quite literally, a Done Deal.

That doesn't mean however, that we are ever going to see the end of "F-35 IN THE CROSSHAIRS?!?!?!ONE" articles—it's just too easy of a Content Creation Model for unscrupulous and lazy editors to pass up. Like Maj "Hasard" Lee said, it's only because of the increased transparency and attention to this program, and the amount of Content (read: $$$) these charades generate, that they're in the public eye, at all; these charades will continue, as long as there are eyeballs to follow them. I predict, When the 2000th F-35 rolls off its assembly line decades from now, there will be a procedurally-generated "F-35 BOONDOGGLE?!?!?!ONE" article ready for it. This is going to happen, and there's no point getting bent out of shape about it.

In the meantime, let's do something else, please.

tl;dr:
https://imgur.com/a/G7TrzZF
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XanderCrews

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Unread post14 May 2021, 19:00

casador wrote:Breaking my serene lurkerdom to say two things [...]


Welcome aboard! can you repost this here please: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=57823&p=453832#p453832

You said it better than I could.
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Unread post14 May 2021, 20:57

:applause: Yep - thanks 'serene lurker dom' - well said and I'm hoping the usually USA one side or tuther political rants cease.
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Unread post15 May 2021, 12:35

casador wrote:Breaking my serene lurkerdom to say two things


Thank you Casador!
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Corsair1963

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Unread post17 May 2021, 09:33

This is really nothing new....(i.e. Media)


https://youtu.be/4xJBvKJht78
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ricnunes

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Unread post17 May 2021, 13:07

Corsair1963 wrote:This is really nothing new....(i.e. Media)


https://youtu.be/4xJBvKJht78


That's a 'classic' one Corsair!

I urge everyone here to watch the video that Corsair shared above but do it with your eyes closed or listen only to the audio and everytime you hear 'F-18' or 'Hornet' replace those words with 'F-35' :wink:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post18 May 2021, 07:15

There's a longer-term message in that video about taking the word of recently retired pilots and aerospace experts. Or rather, the noisy subset of them who do not understand the aircraft, nor it's basic concept of fighting via stealth with networked data systems and a massive SA advantage. They did not think about the implications, just rushed to dismissed the aircraft and quickly painted themselves into an ever-shrinking corner of always rising denial. Running faster and faster inside ever smaller radii until they reach warp and disappear toward their fundamental orifice, and are never seen or heard from again. There seems to have been a lot of that lately.

The catch with dissent is you do have to be right.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth

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