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Re: F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2021, 09:41
by herciv

Re: F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2021, 13:59
by mixelflick


Somewhat surprised to be honest. They're getting SU-35's right now, so that takes care of the high end air to air mission. I would have thought they would spring for advanced Mig-29's or perhaps even Mig-35's next. Other than the Meteor and some terrific avionics, not sure what the Rafale buys them. Diversity in arms suppliers comes to mind.

The US should have sold them Eagles long ago IMO. Would have probably prevented this turn back to Russia..

Re: F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2021, 14:27
by steve2267
In his book, Viper PIlot, Twodogs' description of his experience at an Egyptian airbase (in the late 1990's?) did not paint a very complementary picture of Egyptian technical competence, let alone military competence. Modern, hardened aircraft shelters filled with human excrement, pilots that had issues flying a basic landing pattern. Why the Egyptians buy what they buy may be as much about personal ego of the person making the buy decision as well as cost and what they can actually purchase. Not being totally dependent on one supplier probably factors in to some degree. But I cannot detect a rhyme or reason. I'd be surprised if half those aircraft are still operational in 5-10 years. Maybe less.

Re: F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2021, 21:54
by herciv
mixelflick wrote:


Somewhat surprised to be honest. They're getting SU-35's right now, so that takes care of the high end air to air mission. I would have thought they would spring for advanced Mig-29's or perhaps even Mig-35's next. Other than the Meteor and some terrific avionics, not sure what the Rafale buys them. Diversity in arms suppliers comes to mind.

The US should have sold them Eagles long ago IMO. Would have probably prevented this turn back to Russia..


The best squadron size with Rafale is 18. Then with 24 That's only two small squadron size. Just to say that with 12 it should have been the minimum complement. With 30 that's make 3 squadrons.

Re: F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2021, 02:35
by Corsair1963
herciv wrote:
mixelflick wrote:


Somewhat surprised to be honest. They're getting SU-35's right now, so that takes care of the high end air to air mission. I would have thought they would spring for advanced Mig-29's or perhaps even Mig-35's next. Other than the Meteor and some terrific avionics, not sure what the Rafale buys them. Diversity in arms suppliers comes to mind.

The US should have sold them Eagles long ago IMO. Would have probably prevented this turn back to Russia..


The best squadron size with Rafale is 18. Then with 24 That's only two small squadron size. Just to say that with 12 it should have been the minimum complement. With 30 that's make 3 squadrons.


No, like many your not counting aircraft down for maintenance, upgrades, or attrition. So, three squadrons of 18 would equal 54 aircraft. Yet, nothing for the aforementioned. In addition one squadron would be also needed for an OCU. Which, is usually squadron size or even larger!

So, to be realistic it's more like three squadrons of 12 and with one being the OCU.

In short you need about a 1/3 of the aircraft available. To support the 2/3 that are actually in service and combat ready! Which, is no small feat in the Real World!

Re: F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2021, 06:14
by herciv
I agree With this rule.
But Egypt already had 24 (-1) rafales. Adding them to the 30 make 3 squadrons of 18 rafales (-1 lost in a crash). India and Quatar has 2 squadrons of 18 and Greece is starting to constitute its first squadron of 18.

Re: F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2021, 06:47
by Corsair1963
herciv wrote:I agree With this rule.
But Egypt already had 24 (-1) rafales. Adding them to the 30 make 3 squadrons of 18 rafales (-1 lost in a crash). India and Quatar has 2 squadrons of 18 and Greece is starting to constitute its first squadron of 18.



No, it doesn't because you would never have 18 available........you would need 18 Rafales to support a Squadron of 12 aircraft.


So, the best Egypt could hope for is three squadrons of 12 aircraft. With one to act as the OCU.

Re: F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2021, 07:11
by hornetfinn
mixelflick wrote:


Somewhat surprised to be honest. They're getting SU-35's right now, so that takes care of the high end air to air mission. I would have thought they would spring for advanced Mig-29's or perhaps even Mig-35's next. Other than the Meteor and some terrific avionics, not sure what the Rafale buys them. Diversity in arms suppliers comes to mind.

The US should have sold them Eagles long ago IMO. Would have probably prevented this turn back to Russia..


Well, Rafale is likey a lot better multi-role aircraft than any Russian aircraft. Rafale has better avionics and targeting systems and likely better air-to-ground weapons available. It has lower RCS and thermal signatures along with a very good EW system. So overall I think it's a lot better air-to-ground machine than Russian ones. Meteor and MICA missiles are also likely superior to their Russian counterparts. I also think even Su-35 with RVV-SD and R-74 would be in serious trouble against Rafale with Meteor and MICA-IR.

I do agree that Egypt should've been sold F-15s to keep them from turning towards Russia. I think they would've still bought stuff from Russia, but less so than now.

Re: F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2021, 08:01
by Corsair1963
I can only assume the New Rafales will be operated by the 34th and 36th Tactical Fighter Squadrons? (203rd Tactical Fighter Wing) @ Gebel el Basur air base to the northwest of Cairo...


I don't know the OCU or the mix of types. (single vs twin)


Does anybody here........ :|

Re: F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2021, 08:15
by Corsair1963
The comments above make a good case why 48 F-35B's for the UK would be totally inadequate! :shock:

Re: F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2021, 10:34
by herciv
Corsair1963 wrote:
herciv wrote:I agree With this rule.
But Egypt already had 24 (-1) rafales. Adding them to the 30 make 3 squadrons of 18 rafales (-1 lost in a crash). India and Quatar has 2 squadrons of 18 and Greece is starting to constitute its first squadron of 18.



No, it doesn't because you would never have 18 available........you would need 18 Rafales to support a Squadron of 12 aircraft.


So, the best Egypt could hope for is three squadrons of 12 aircraft. With one to act as the OCU.


It's hard to say that. India had the same reputation and has subscribed a Performance BASE LOGISTIC with 75% FMC to be garanty by dassault.
Is there such a PBL for Egypt ?
There is in France a PBL between Dassault and FRANCE named RAVEL. It gives very good result.

I think that Egypt could have also subscribed a PBL, who knows.

Re: F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2021, 10:37
by Corsair1963
herciv wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
herciv wrote:I agree With this rule.
But Egypt already had 24 (-1) rafales. Adding them to the 30 make 3 squadrons of 18 rafales (-1 lost in a crash). India and Quatar has 2 squadrons of 18 and Greece is starting to constitute its first squadron of 18.



No, it doesn't because you would never have 18 available........you would need 18 Rafales to support a Squadron of 12 aircraft.


So, the best Egypt could hope for is three squadrons of 12 aircraft. With one to act as the OCU.


It's hard to say that. India had the same reputation and has subscribed a Performance BASE LOGISTIC with 75% FMC to be garanty by dassault.
Is there such a PBL for Egypt ?
There is in France a PBL between Dassault and FRANCE named RAVEL. It gives very good result.

I think that Egypt could have also subscribed a PBL, who knows.


The math hasn't changed in decades...........

Re: F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2021, 12:55
by herciv
Corsair1963 wrote:
No, it doesn't because you would never have 18 available........you would need 18 Rafales to support a Squadron of 12 aircraft.



The math hasn't changed in decades...........

I don't make the math for rafale squadron. I just tell you that currently every rafales squadrons in the world have a 18 rafales size at the notable exception of Egypt who had 2 squadrons each with 12 rafales.

Re: F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2021, 15:35
by herciv
All rafales will be delivered to India several months before sheduled date (end of 2021 in place of april 2022).

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 82322.html
"While French manufacturer Dassault will deliver all the 36 Rafales by latter half of the year, the IAF is in a state of preparedness as the disengagement and de-escalation plan with the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) in eastern Ladakh is still not complete as the Chinese army is not willing to restore status quo ante in Gogra-Hot Springs sector along the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh."

Re: F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2021, 23:33
by Corsair1963
herciv wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
No, it doesn't because you would never have 18 available........you would need 18 Rafales to support a Squadron of 12 aircraft.



The math hasn't changed in decades...........

I don't make the math for rafale squadron. I just tell you that currently every rafales squadrons in the world have a 18 rafales size at the notable exception of Egypt who had 2 squadrons each with 12 rafales.



Clearly, your trying to make the math fit your numbers. Which, they clearly don't.......