F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

[spazsinbad]

The Charles de Gaulle Carrier Strike Group and the John C. Stennis Carrier Strike Group conduct operations at sea
15 Apr 2019 RED SEA Petty Officer 3rd Class Erika Kugler - USS John C. Stennis (CVN 74)

"Aircraft assigned to the aircraft carrier USS John C. Stennis (CVN 74) and the French Marine Nationale aircraft carrier FS Charles de Gaulle (F 91), perform a fly over in the Red Sea, April 15, 2019. The John C. Stennis Carrier Strike Group is deployed to the U.S. 5th Fleet area of operations in support of naval operations to ensure maritime stability and security in the Central Region, connecting the Mediterranean and the Pacific through the western Indian Ocean and three strategic choke points. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Erika L. Kugler)"

JPG: https://www.dvidshub.net/download/image/5270996 (0.6Mb)

Source: https://www.dvidshub.net/image/5270996/ ... ations-sea

[marsavian]

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/50-of-rs-59000-cr-rafale-price-paid-but-first-flight-in-oct-2022/amp_articleshow/67607182.cms

NEW DELHI: India has already paid more than half of the Rs 59,000 crore owed to France under the contract inked in 2016 for the 36 Rafale fighter jets, which will be delivered between November 2019 and April 2022.
The 13 India-specific enhancements or upgrades on the 36 jets will, however, become fully operational only by September-October 2022 as they will require another six months to undergo "software certification" after all of them have touched down in India.

The "non-recurring" design and development cost of the 13 ISEs or upgrades, which range from radar enhancements, low-band jammers and Israeli helmet-mounted displays to towed decoy systems and the engine capability for "cold start" from high-altitude regions, is pegged at 1.3 billion euros in the overall 7.8-billion-euro deal for the 36 Rafales.

More on the intricate details of the India Rafale deal

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 019165.ece
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2019011810 ... pposition/
https://mobile.twitter.com/PChidambaram ... 8512333825

In 2007, five years before M/s Dassault Aviation was declared the L1 vendor, that is, the Lowest Bidder and the presumptive winner of the tender floated by the United Progressive Alliance government for the supply of 126 Rafales (18 flyaway plus 108 to be manufactured, under licence, in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited), the price quoted by the vendor for one flyaway bare-bones aircraft was €79.3 million. By 2011, the escalation cost factor had taken this per-aircraft price up to €100.85 million. In 2016, the 9% discount on the 2011 price obtained by the NDA government for the 36 Rafales it was buying from France through an Inter-Governmental Agreement brought this per-aircraft price down to €91.75 million.

But that is not even half the story. Dassault claimed a €1.4 billion cost for the ‘design and development’ of 13 India Specific Enhancements, that is, additional capabilities in the form of hardware as well as software that had been specified by the Indian Air Force all along, and this cost was negotiated down to €1.3 billion. What it meant was that the design and development cost, now distributed over 36 Rafale fighter jets, shot up from €11.11 million per aircraft in 2007 to €36.11 million when the deal was struck in 2016.

I wonder in light of recent border frictions if India will go all in with Rafale now and drop the local manufacturing aim of its modern fighter MRCA follow on competition.
Technically and price wise I see only Rafale and Gripen in the hunt leading to just the manufacturing difference however Rafale will have one foot in the door ...

[mixelflick]

You bring up an excellent point..

India is in a dire position. Swallowing its national pride and dropping the local production/tech transfer requirement may be necessary to achieve the modernization requirements it needs. Every day that ticks by those Mig-21's 27's, Mirage 2000's and even SU-30MKI's are growing longer in the tooth.

The poor showing in the latest border skirmish with PAK highlighted this, IMO. The situation is getting worse on all fronts: China now has stealth aircraft. India won't be getting the F-35, and if the J-31 takes off well, PAK has bought Chinese fighters before.

India needs to make a decision and fast. They are rapidly approaching a position of being unable to defend their borders, much less carry out deep interdiction missions into PAK or elsewhere.

[loke]

You bring up an excellent point..

India is in a dire position. Swallowing its national pride and dropping the local production/tech transfer requirement may be necessary to achieve the modernization requirements it needs. Every day that ticks by those Mig-21's 27's, Mirage 2000's and even SU-30MKI's are growing longer in the tooth.

The poor showing in the latest border skirmish with PAK highlighted this, IMO. The situation is getting worse on all fronts: China now has stealth aircraft. India won't be getting the F-35, and if the J-31 takes off well, PAK has bought Chinese fighters before.

India needs to make a decision and fast. They are rapidly approaching a position of being unable to defend their borders, much less carry out deep interdiction missions into PAK or elsewhere.

It's funny to see the word "India" in the same sentence as "make a fast decision"...

[mixelflick]

You bring up an excellent point..

India is in a dire position. Swallowing its national pride and dropping the local production/tech transfer requirement may be necessary to achieve the modernization requirements it needs. Every day that ticks by those Mig-21's 27's, Mirage 2000's and even SU-30MKI's are growing longer in the tooth.

The poor showing in the latest border skirmish with PAK highlighted this, IMO. The situation is getting worse on all fronts: China now has stealth aircraft. India won't be getting the F-35, and if the J-31 takes off well, PAK has bought Chinese fighters before.

India needs to make a decision and fast. They are rapidly approaching a position of being unable to defend their borders, much less carry out deep interdiction missions into PAK or elsewhere.

It's funny to see the word "India" in the same sentence as "make a fast decision"...

Haha!!!

[spazsinbad]

RAFALE M gets punchy with it. CdeG deployment - cool cool cool.
PICTURES: Rafale M in marathon carrier deployment 13 Jun 2019 Greg Waldron
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-458532/

[mixelflick]

RAFALE M gets punchy with it. CdeG deployment - cool cool cool.
PICTURES: Rafale M in marathon carrier deployment 13 Jun 2019 Greg Waldron
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-458532/

Looks chubby in some pics, but dart like and futuristic in others.

Of all the Euro-canards though, it's probably the most capable. Have to really hand it to the French, they keep pumping out beautiful and deadly fighters. The big question now is whether Dassault can/will join the very RCS parade.

I think it eventually will, but at an astronomical cost.

[herciv]

https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Ft ... id=2394125

[loke]

Slightly off-topic, but not entirely...

https://hushkit.net/2019/05/28/dassault ... -briefing/

[swiss]

Some very nice Videos from the French NAVY. Cockpit perspective from Rafale M.

[mixelflick]

Beautiful bird, really is.

Looks great in Indian colors too. It will add great punch to Indian air power, albeit in such small numbers (unless of course, it wins the current fighter tender). I think it would be an infinitely better bird vs. the Mig-29K, but apparently that ship has already sailed.

[euromaster]

The F-35 seems more of a sensor/force multiplier plane than a warrior. I would not put it up against any other plane in an Air to Air role, unless it sacrifices its primary ace (Stealth) it limps along with only a couple of the old AMRAAM (Meteor still not fitted in the UK, not until the 20's last I looked) on its own. Sending pilots against other aircraft with only 2-4 missiles is going to get pilots killed. Especially if the adversary has IRST/modern developing radars. Besides, the F-35 has about the kinematic performance of a 3rd gen air-frame. Its low/slow flight makes it better for strike against undefended targets while higher performance aircraft such as Typhoon, Rafale, F-22 (if flying still) would be taking the shots at long stand-off range (meteor).

Thankfully, that seems to be the role most nations are going with the F-35, its more of a support/sensor plane to support more capable combat aircraft.

Pretty sure stealth is taking a back seat on 6th Gen fighter designs in lieu of weapons and speed/performance etc after seeing the limitations in those areas for Stealth aircraft. That and their maintenance issue.

[garrya]

The F-35 seems more of a sensor/force multiplier plane than a warrior. I would not put it up against any other plane in an Air to Air role, unless it sacrifices its primary ace (Stealth) it limps along with only a couple of the old AMRAAM (Meteor still not fitted in the UK, not until the 20's last I looked) on its own. Sending pilots against other aircraft with only 2-4 missiles is going to get pilots killed. Especially if the adversary has IRST/modern developing radars. Besides, the F-35 has about the kinematic performance of a 3rd gen air-frame. Its low/slow flight makes it better for strike against undefended targets while higher performance aircraft such as Typhoon, Rafale, F-22 (if flying still) would be taking the shots at long stand-off range (meteor).

Thankfully, that seems to be the role most nations are going with the F-35, its more of a support/sensor plane to support more capable combat aircraft.
.

Unfortunately, military don't operate in vacuum, sending Eurofighter or Rafale into any air space defended by recent IADS like as S-400 or AEGIS and pilot will be killed, the number of missile you can carry is irrelevant if you never have a chance to launch them, performance of any fighters is pathetic compare to that of a surface to air missiles.
Drawback of F-35 such as light internal load out will be mitigated in block 4 with side kick launcher, whereas Eurofighter and Rafale both stuck with non stealthy airframe. IIrc, all Eurofighter in service at the moment don't even have AESA

Pretty sure stealth is taking a back seat on 6th Gen fighter designs in lieu of weapons and speed/performance etc after seeing the limitations in those areas for Stealth aircraft. That and their maintenance issue

That pretty sure not what we saw on all 6 gen concept to date, they all share VLO characteristics, some even go as far as completely eliminate the vertical tails.

[euromaster]

Eurofighter or Rafale into any air space defended by recent IADS like as S-400 or AEGIS and pilot will be killed

You would not send any plane into that environment, there is no real need. Just launch a stand-off weapon beyond their effective range. Anything in the 450-500km+ class will do. Flying any aircraft including a F-35 or F-22 in range of such missiles is a risk.

Drawback of F-35 such as light internal load out will be mitigated in block 4 with side kick launcher

Yes but meanwhile were still stuck with just a couple of missiles and the later block launcher is still limited in what it can carry. The F-35 will still be poorly armed. Hence, it will rely on better armed fighters.

Eurofighter and Rafale both stuck with non stealthy airframe.

Well sure but then the F-35 is still stuck with a lower/slower air-frame than higher end jets like the Typhoon, F-22 etc and limited ammo carriage. The difference is newer sensors and weapons can counter/mitigate stealth more cheaply while the small weapons bay limits all future weapons in both capacity and capability.

Eurofighter in service at the moment don't even have AESA]

No they are waiting for the next gen CAPTOR-E AESA, the goal post's for its capability keep getting pushed back, the MoD wants more and more from it before they cut the red tape. I guess its a toss up to see if the Typhoon gets its AESA before the F-35 gets the Block 4 update and can carry half a decent weapons load.

That pretty sure not what we saw on all 6 gen concept to date

I was refering to what Jonathan Greenert (Chief of naval operations 2015) said;

https://news.usni.org/2015/03/27/navy-a ... -and-fa-18

Which makes sense. If your making a 6th gen may as well improve on what the 5th gen struggled with.

[magitsu]

F-35 can be stealthy cueing platform instead of shooter. But that one doesn't need to be a completely different type of arsenal plane, it can be another F-35 - with different config if necessary.

F-35 wingman can have beast mode config with external weapons if need be. In current conflicts there is no real need for larger capacity than internal holds. B-1, B-21 or navy destroyer is likely arsenal "plane" if e.g. massed cruise missiles are needed.