F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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viper12

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Unread post26 Mar 2018, 13:58

monkeypilot wrote:It is called a security bubble (i just learned that educating myself, i cannot help transmitting you). Rafale can jam over 360° It uses with coherent signals precisely emitted towards the target to be jammed. Nothing to do with "white noise" used by FA/18 G. That is why half a dozen of AESA antennas are placed all around the airrcraft allowing an intelligent jamming (deception, rage gate pull off etc.) A FA 18 is strictly unable to use with the same efficiency and precision..."and it's a digital system and not analogue like the rafale" source? . How would you qualify the signal received by the RWR? Digital or analog? Think about it plz.


You got sources for that, especially the bold parts ?
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swiss

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Unread post26 Mar 2018, 14:47

icemaverick wrote:
I think the Rafale's dismal export sales answer that question. At best it is marginally better than the Super Hornet and Typhoon (and this is of course debatable). All of these aircraft are of roughly equal capability.

The Typhoon has at least gotten a lot of Middle Eastern buyers. The Super Hornet was never going to sell well because customers knew that the F-35 was on the way. But France has been aggressively trying to sell the Rafale for decades and fewer than 100 orders have been placed.

If the Rafale was all that great, why didn't the Saudis or the Emiratis or Kuwaitis buy it? Why didn't Singapore buy it? Qatar bought it, but they also bought F-15s and Typhoons. India bought 36 and is now looking at other aircraft. Egypt only bought it because of its rift with the USA and only after French banks offered generous loans.


Some good arguments. But if you are right and the Rafale is so much more expensive, India must choose the SH. Last thing I heard is, that India is interested at more Rafale ( Navy).


Thanks for your explanation BP. One is for sure, the Rafale is more expensive then the SH.

@ monkeypilot: About the security bubble. Means this the Rafale can shoot down a incoming missiles inside this bubble with a Mica? Or is this wishful thinking.
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icemaverick

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Unread post26 Mar 2018, 17:04

India is considering the Rafale, Super Hornet and even F-35 for its Navy. Its Air Force is now looking into single engine fighters and according to some reports, asked for information on the F-35 as well.
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swiss

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Unread post26 Mar 2018, 22:25

icemaverick wrote:India is considering the Rafale, Super Hornet and even F-35 for its Navy. Its Air Force is now looking into single engine fighters and according to some reports, asked for information on the F-35 as well.


If india has access to the F-35, then its very clear what they have to buy in terms of capability and costs. :wink:

But if we talk about 4 gen, especially in A2A, the Rafale has the Meteor and AESA. And in a view years a GaN AESA. As far as i know, even the SH Block III can over this. And i assume against future threats, like the J-20, this combo will be a very important factor.

Maybe the upgrade to a GaN AESA is the reason, that the Rafale is so expensive for the Indians?
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Corsair1963

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Unread post27 Mar 2018, 02:17

India has little choice but the F-35 in my opinion. As the Su-57, Rafale, and Super Hornet. Are not likely to be an effective counter to the PLAAF/PLAN J-20 and/or J-31. :shock:
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Unread post27 Mar 2018, 14:40

Corsair1963 wrote:India has little choice but the F-35 in my opinion. As the Su-57, Rafale, and Super Hornet. Are not likely to be an effective counter to the PLAAF/PLAN J-20 and/or J-31. :shock:


I sincerely hope you are kidding. Do you actually think it would be a good idea to let the Indians have the f-35 along with the su-57? Seriously? So they can pick it apart inside and out? They'll find out all of its strengths and weaknesses, and that information's going immediately to the Russians right beside them, who are laughing at whatever idiot politician who thought it would be a good idea to give them the f-35.

:doh: this emoji doesn't do it justice.
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monkeypilot

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Unread post27 Mar 2018, 14:53

The use of DRFM and AESA antennas is well documented viper. Icemavercik, the single engine proposal is officially out.
More interestint, Tuesday, 12 Rafale and 350 ppl from Navy base Landivisiau are going to Oceana then USS GW Bush till 27th of may. Operation code name : Cheasapeake. Aimed at conservation of capabilities of french side, and cross training. There should be several deplyments of whole Rafale sqd like that during Chales de Gaulle IPER. (mid life update)
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viper12

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Unread post27 Mar 2018, 15:13

So well documented I don't see anything ; could you please tell your sources, especially the parts I've put in bold ?
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Unread post27 Mar 2018, 15:38

icemaverick wrote:India is considering the Rafale, Super Hornet and even F-35 for its Navy. Its Air Force is now looking into single engine fighters and according to some reports, asked for information on the F-35 as well.

As stated above, the single-engine fighter competition has been "expanded" to also inclue the twin-engine fighter jets.

The IAF has denied it has asked for information on the F-35. I also doubt the Indian Navy is considering the F-35. The reason is of course political. India is not in a place where it can/will ask for the F-35, and the US is not ready to offer it quite yet AFAIK -- however this may change as politics change.
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monkeypilot

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Unread post27 Mar 2018, 15:47

viper12 wrote:So well documented I don't see anything ; could you please tell your sources, especially the parts I've put in bold ?


interferometry for high precision DOA and passive ranging, digital frequency memory for signal coherency and active phased-array transmitters


https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwid ... a?pid=1568

Please no new flame war about spectra....
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viper12

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Unread post27 Mar 2018, 15:52

monkeypilot wrote:
viper12 wrote:So well documented I don't see anything ; could you please tell your sources, especially the parts I've put in bold ?


interferometry for high precision DOA and passive ranging, digital frequency memory for signal coherency and active phased-array transmitters


https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwid ... a?pid=1568

Please no new flame war about spectra....


So let me read this :

monkeypilot wrote:It is called a security bubble (i just learned that educating myself, i cannot help transmitting you). Rafale can jam over 360° It uses with coherent signals precisely emitted towards the target to be jammed. Nothing to do with "white noise" used by FA/18 G. That is why half a dozen of AESA antennas are placed all around the airrcraft allowing an intelligent jamming (deception, rage gate pull off etc.) A FA 18 is strictly unable to use with the same efficiency and precision..."and it's a digital system and not analogue like the rafale" source? . How would you qualify the signal received by the RWR? Digital or analog? Think about it plz.


Compare with :

SPECTRA wrote:
The SPECTRA system for the Rafale combat aircraft operates in electromagnetic, laser and infra-red domains. Using sophisticated techniques, such as interferometry for high precision DOA and passive ranging, digital frequency memory for signal coherency and active phased-array transmitters for maximum effectiveness and covertness, the highly advanced multi-sensors and artificial intelligence data fusion capabilities of SPECTRA provide the Rafale aircraft with the best chance to survive in harsh and lethal environments. The Rafale combat aircraft and the SPECTRA system are fully operational onboard the French Navy's Rafale.

Offering unique high sensitivity detection and multiple threat capability, and operating smart data fusion between multi-spectral sensors, it provides identification, location, jamming and decoying against an extensive range of electromagnetic, infra-red and laser threats.

Additionally, SPECTRA fulfils new functions in a combat aircraft, while significantly participating in the determination of the aircraft's tactical situation, and providing the crew with operational advantage by performing accurate threat location.

By virtue of its fully passive situational awareness capability, SPECTRA is a major contributor to the low observability concept of Rafale.


So no, you haven't provided a proof about your claim pertaining the white noise jamming of the EA-18G. And no, the SPECTRA document doesn't mention (technically) half a dozen AESA antennae.
Last edited by viper12 on 27 Mar 2018, 16:36, edited 1 time in total.
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loke

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Unread post27 Mar 2018, 16:06

AFAIK active phased-array antenna = AESA.

So the text you qoute seem to support what monkeypilot said -- that SPECTRA has AESA antennas. Or was it the "half a dozen" that you disagree with?
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viper12

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Unread post27 Mar 2018, 16:34

My bad, I missed the phased array part. But indeed, I do have some issues with the number.
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Unread post27 Mar 2018, 16:54

Spectra has around a dozen different visible components if this picture's six on the one side repeat on the other side (which you'd expect). But these are very likely not all antennas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_Sp ... pectra.png

Based on that pic and extrapolation, Spectra has 3 RWR, 1-2 LWR +
Heckbehälter = rear container
Seitenleitwerksbehälter = vertical stabilizer container
Täuschkörpenwerfer = countermeasure dispenser
Störsender = radio jammer
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monkeypilot

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Unread post27 Mar 2018, 18:58

magitsu wrote:Spectra has around a dozen different visible components if this picture's six on the one side repeat on the other side (which you'd expect). But these are very likely not all antennas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_Sp ... pectra.png

Based on that pic and extrapolation, Spectra has 3 RWR, 1-2 LWR +
Heckbehälter = rear container
Seitenleitwerksbehälter = vertical stabilizer container
Täuschkörpenwerfer = countermeasure dispenser
Störsender = radio jammer


Respectively 3 "receiving and 3 "emitting" antennae. Not that this number isn't important.
White noise jamming isn't bad viper. It is simply a different notion, aimed at collectively jam and protect itself and other members of a "raid/flight". Rafale concept answers to operationnally different requirements, numbers being much lower than US assets. These "smart jamming" self protection have their own issues, e.g. they are quickly limited in number of assets to be jammed. Different doctrina, ,numbers, environment, lead to diferent solutions. NGJ should bring to Growler much different capabilities.
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