F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post23 Jun 2021, 13:40

ricnunes wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:I think binoculars are likely useful even with targeting pods as it's easier to scan around and find thing of interest than using a pod and looking at display but with a lot longer range than using just eyes.


In 4th gen fighter aircraft that are equipped with Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (HMCS) there's no need to have binoculars since you can use the HMCS to look and cue/aim the EO Targeting Pod towards an area of interest and just watch in a display the image of the area with far more zoom capability, can also use IR spectrum in order to detect contacts much more easily (besides using light spectrum) and above all it's a stabilized image (as opposed to binoculars) which in the end grants a much better 'imagery quality' to the pilot or WSO (or whatever he/she is called).

But obviously you cannot do this in a Rafale because it doesn't have a HMCS in the first place! :roll:


Very true and that's obviously been a real drawback for Rafale. IIRC, Rafale F4 will finally receive Thales Scorpion HMD in about 2025 or so. Not sure if the French will give up on their binoculars with them... :D Maybe not if the earlier Rafales are not upgraded to the same standard.
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steve2267

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Unread post23 Jun 2021, 14:45

But if those gyro stabilized binos are tied into a pointing system... you could use the binos to direct the targeting pod. I feel a multi-million dollar boondoggle acomin...
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post23 Jun 2021, 15:40

Can they use the term 'omnidirectional' again. As if it means something?
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Unread post23 Jun 2021, 15:54

How about the olden tymes nomenclature: "ALL SINGING ALL DANCING" THINGAMEJIG?
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Unread post24 Jun 2021, 08:09

Found this rather interesting document about Rafale and I don't find it being posted before:
https://omnirole-rafale.com/wp-content/ ... x-3-14.pdf

About FSO:
The Rafale is the only fighter equipped with an integrated system optimised for target identification and battle damage assessment at stand-off distances. The Front Sector Optronics is composed of a powerful TV sensor to identify targets and to determine the number of hostile aircraft within an incoming raid, and of an eyesafe laser rangefinder for telemetry. When used in conjunction with the long range Mica IR missile, the FSO allows entirely passive interceptions to be carried out without radar emissions. In the air-to-ground mode, the FSO is used to accurately determine target coordinates before attacking with precision weapons such as the AASM (Air-to-Surface Modular Armament) or LGBs (Laser Guided Bombs). A new generation infrared sensor for passive search and track of airborne targets and for night identification could be integrated into the FSO at a later stage. Such an infrared sensor operating in the 8 to 12 µm band has been fielded in the French Air Force F2 Standard Rafales, and an updated variant working in the 3 to 5 µm band is being studied for the future growth of the FSO. The FSO has been in service since 2005 and is now combat proven.


Of course that claim about being the only fighter nicely forgets F-35, which was already in service when this article was published... But interesting nonetheless that F2 Rafales have LWIR sensor in FSO and that might be updated to MWIR in the future. I've seen very conflicting information about FSO previously. I think there will be upgrade for FSO in F4 standard and that might include that new MWIR sensor.

Rafale seems to be pretty well equipped (for 4th gen jet) with targeting pods, reconnaissance pod and FSO having both IR (although old LWIR is likely rather limited in resolution and contrast against ground targets) and TV sensor. I started to wonder if binoculars meant the guy on the ground (JTAC) had the binoculars?
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Unread post24 Jun 2021, 08:34

The STORE does not hot link: https://www.thestore-dassault-aviation. ... iation.jpg (1Mb) [even tho it is a JPG extension the graphic is really a PNG file]
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Unread post24 Jun 2021, 09:26

hornetfinn wrote:Found this rather interesting document about Rafale and I don't find it being posted before:
https://omnirole-rafale.com/wp-content/ ... x-3-14.pdf

About FSO:
The Rafale is the only fighter equipped with an integrated system optimised for target identification and battle damage assessment at stand-off distances. The Front Sector Optronics is composed of a powerful TV sensor to identify targets and to determine the number of hostile aircraft within an incoming raid, and of an eyesafe laser rangefinder for telemetry. When used in conjunction with the long range Mica IR missile, the FSO allows entirely passive interceptions to be carried out without radar emissions. In the air-to-ground mode, the FSO is used to accurately determine target coordinates before attacking with precision weapons such as the AASM (Air-to-Surface Modular Armament) or LGBs (Laser Guided Bombs). A new generation infrared sensor for passive search and track of airborne targets and for night identification could be integrated into the FSO at a later stage. Such an infrared sensor operating in the 8 to 12 µm band has been fielded in the French Air Force F2 Standard Rafales, and an updated variant working in the 3 to 5 µm band is being studied for the future growth of the FSO. The FSO has been in service since 2005 and is now combat proven.


Of course that claim about being the only fighter nicely forgets F-35, which was already in service when this article was published... But interesting nonetheless that F2 Rafales have LWIR sensor in FSO and that might be updated to MWIR in the future. I've seen very conflicting information about FSO previously. I think there will be upgrade for FSO in F4 standard and that might include that new MWIR sensor.

Rafale seems to be pretty well equipped (for 4th gen jet) with targeting pods, reconnaissance pod and FSO having both IR (although old LWIR is likely rather limited in resolution and contrast against ground targets) and TV sensor. I started to wonder if binoculars meant the guy on the ground (JTAC) had the binoculars?


I do not understand, are they telling that FSO has a laser market for to guide LGBs or are they guided trought GPS coordinates? It would be a big advantage above Pirate Irst for example if they use FSO supporting ground attacks.

Because FSO is not located on best position for looking into ground targets...
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Unread post24 Jun 2021, 09:45

falcon.16 wrote:I do not understand, are they telling that FSO has a laser market for to guide LGBs or are they guided trought GPS coordinates? It would be a big advantage above Pirate Irst for example if they use FSO supporting ground attacks.

Because FSO is not located on best position for looking into ground targets...


It says that FSO has a laser rangefinder which allows it to find ground target coordinates but would not work as a target designator to guide LGBs. It would require targeting pod to designate targets for LGBs but aircraft with FSO only could provide coordinates for aircraft which do carry targeting pod. Not sure how useful capability that would be in real life. Probably in some cases it could be, although as you mention, the positioning of FSO is not the best for that.

I think that every single F-35 carrying an internal targeting pod is huge advantage in real world scenarios. Every F-35 can designate targets at extended ranges at any moment for other assets even if they do not carry suitable weapons themselves. Rafale has some of that capability, but FSO is far from performance of an actual targeting pod for air-to-ground operations. Of course that's better than most other 4th gen jets can claim.
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Unread post24 Jun 2021, 13:28

Targeting coordinates, however acquired, can be shared to other aircraft via Link-16, which I believe the Rafale has?

Col Hampton, TwoDogs wrote about sending coordinates to his wingmen and other flights via Link-16 many times in his book Viper Pilot.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post24 Jun 2021, 14:50

steve2267 wrote:Targeting coordinates, however acquired, can be shared to other aircraft via Link-16, which I believe the Rafale has?

Col Hampton, TwoDogs wrote about sending coordinates to his wingmen and other flights via Link-16 many times in his book Viper Pilot.

Yes it has. And it is use in many situations.
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Unread post27 Jun 2021, 21:59

The FSO is very obviously a primary AA system given its placement Though it can look at stuff on the ground (angle permitting) the laser can't designate, only range. Still provides coordinates, which can certainly be passed on through L16 - hmm, since it also has Rover, I wonder if the FSO image could be piped down to a JTAC. Pretty much academic anyway, if doing CAS I don't see why a Rafale would fly without its TGP (especially since Talios added high-res, color video, the kind needed to confirm that yes, that bearded guy on the ground is indeed Joe Most Wanted Taleban).
I suspect French pilots will love the HMD+Talios combination in the future.
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Unread post29 Jun 2021, 17:01

optimist wrote:I don't know, there may have been is a glitch in the software when he was banned. At least he's posting in the Rafale thread.


Perhaps it is but I hope that this gets solved.
This is annoying independently if he only posts or not in the Rafale thread.

optimist wrote:It seems they are fed GMTI tech, as a new marvel of aviation in 2025. That will put it only 20 years behind the Super Hornet. I didn't read past that bit, it could only get worse. If we can just keep him fenced here till he is culled.


LoL :doh:
To be honest I didn't give myself the trouble to read what he posted.
Anyway, GMTI tech pre-dates the Super Hornet. If I'm not mistaken the F/A-18A already used this technology. I know for sure that the F/A-18C already used it.
So we're talking at least 35 years before the Rafale. :doh:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post29 Jun 2021, 22:32

Moderator has told me it was just a glitch now solved. 'herciv' will not post no more.
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Unread post29 Jun 2021, 22:49

spazsinbad wrote:Moderator has told me it was just a glitch now solved. 'herciv' will not post no more.


Thanks spaz :thumb:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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