F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 849
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post19 Mar 2021, 12:57

Indian public statements are among the least likely to be factual. Especially their given performance deficit which spurs all kinds of extra bluster towards their nationalist audience.
Offline

optimist

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1314
  • Joined: 20 Nov 2014, 03:34
  • Location: australia

Unread post19 Mar 2021, 13:13

One day it might even get a helmet mounted display. I've heard they are OK for doing stuff.
Aussie fanboy
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3572
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post19 Mar 2021, 13:27

I have to say that it's still highly interesting what was said in that interview. I like to hear all the different opinions from different perspectives. Indian perspective is very interesting in that they operate both Western and Russian aircraft and China is their main concern.
Offline

loke

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1186
  • Joined: 14 Nov 2008, 19:07

Unread post19 Mar 2021, 13:29

magitsu wrote:Indian public statements are among the least likely to be factual. Especially their given performance deficit which spurs all kinds of extra bluster towards their nationalist audience.

This was not an "indian public statement", this was an interview with a person that has retired from the Indian air force, who has intimate knowledge of the MMRCA process, and also happens to be a former pilot that has flown a number of fighter jets including the Rafale.
Offline

optimist

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1314
  • Joined: 20 Nov 2014, 03:34
  • Location: australia

Unread post19 Mar 2021, 13:35

LCA Tejas Mk.2 > Rafale. I don't know if I would go that far, but he did in the interview.

Was I being too hard for rafale vs fa-18e II and growler? Should we start with a F-16 block 70?
Aussie fanboy
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3272
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post19 Mar 2021, 13:49

IMO, it's clear that the Indian competition which selected the Rafale was clearly 'rigged' in favor of an European fighter aircraft and has much less to do with radar detection range or even other features. For instance who were the last finalists? The Rafale (the winner) and the Typhoon. And these two finalists were selected/reduced in 2011. Moreover and backing this up is the fact that the Typhoon didn't (and still doesn't) have an AESA radar like for example the Super Hornet.

And I would say that this is due to historical factors. Historically the Indian Air Force operated European (French and British) and Soviet/Russian aircraft. It was only very recently that the Indians started to operate other types of American aircraft (The AH-64 Apache and P-8 Poseidon being two examples) and that they started to even consider American fighter aircraft.
Due to this, had the Indian MRCA competition been taken today the last finalists and winner might have been quite different.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
Offline

optimist

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1314
  • Joined: 20 Nov 2014, 03:34
  • Location: australia

Unread post19 Mar 2021, 14:20

I think.. Like Brazil, India's priority is a domestic fighter industry. The US won't transfer the tech. If they apply for and are approved for the F-35. It would be solely for what it can do for the defence of India, as there will be no transfer.
Aussie fanboy
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3572
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post19 Mar 2021, 15:02

ricnunes wrote:IMO, it's clear that the Indian competition which selected the Rafale was clearly 'rigged' in favor of an European fighter aircraft and has much less to do with radar detection range or even other features. For instance who were the last finalists? The Rafale (the winner) and the Typhoon. And these two finalists were selected/reduced in 2011. Moreover and backing this up is the fact that the Typhoon didn't (and still doesn't) have an AESA radar like for example the Super Hornet.

And I would say that this is due to historical factors. Historically the Indian Air Force operated European (French and British) and Soviet/Russian aircraft. It was only very recently that the Indians started to operate other types of American aircraft (The AH-64 Apache and P-8 Poseidon being two examples) and that they started to even consider American fighter aircraft.
Due to this, had the Indian MRCA competition been taken today the last finalists and winner might have been quite different.


IIRC the Eurofighter Typhoon proposal for India included AESA. Of course they didn't exactly have AESA ready for Typhoon back then. I think Rafale made sense in many ways, but the whole process was pretty messed up. Especially so after the actual competition...
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3272
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post19 Mar 2021, 15:46

hornetfinn wrote:IIRC the Eurofighter Typhoon proposal for India included AESA. Of course they didn't exactly have AESA ready for Typhoon back then. I think Rafale made sense in many ways, but the whole process was pretty messed up. Especially so after the actual competition...


Indeed.
But fast forwarding to today, the Typhoon still doesn't have an AESA radar. Perhaps this could have been one of the reasons why the Rafale was selected by India?

Anyway, another reason why the Rafale was selected was if I'm not mistaken a lower price/cost which ended up being much higher than it was promised during the competition (and thus the number of planned aircraft being dropped from 120 or so to 36).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3272
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post19 Mar 2021, 16:01

optimist wrote:I think.. Like Brazil, India's priority is a domestic fighter industry. The US won't transfer the tech. If they apply for and are approved for the F-35. It would be solely for what it can do for the defence of India, as there will be no transfer.


While there are certainly lots of parallels to be drawn between Brazil and India at several levels, the Brazilian selection of the Gripen E/F had little to do with Transfer of Technology or domestic fighter industry - Of the three finalists (Rafale, Super Hornet and Gripen E/F) the favorite which was the Rafale was eliminated because of high costs alone. The second favorite which was the Super Hornet was eliminated solely based on political grounds (the NSA scandal). So and by elimination (and solely by elimination) Brazil selected the Gripen E/F.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3572
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post22 Mar 2021, 07:26

ricnunes wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:IIRC the Eurofighter Typhoon proposal for India included AESA. Of course they didn't exactly have AESA ready for Typhoon back then. I think Rafale made sense in many ways, but the whole process was pretty messed up. Especially so after the actual competition...


Indeed.
But fast forwarding to today, the Typhoon still doesn't have an AESA radar. Perhaps this could have been one of the reasons why the Rafale was selected by India?

Anyway, another reason why the Rafale was selected was if I'm not mistaken a lower price/cost which ended up being much higher than it was promised during the competition (and thus the number of planned aircraft being dropped from 120 or so to 36).


Probably one reason. AESA for Rafale was an an actual and tested product then, although not quite yet in service IIRC. That must've been pretty big as nobody had ordered or even developed an actual AESA radar for Typhoon back then. I think first AESAs for Typhoon will be Kuwaiti ones and I think they have received their first examples. So it was about a decade away for Typhoon and others already had it available. India was also seeking a multi-role fighter and at least in Swiss evaluation it was found to be significantly better multi-role platform.

I think there was both cost escalation and numbers being cut from the original. IIRC they paid something like 216 million euros or 260 million USD for each Rafale including weapons and spares. Kuwait and Qatar both paid more for their AESA equipped Eurofighter Typhoons. Of course direct comparison is difficult becauce the packages were likely different for all countries involved.
Offline

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 849
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post22 Mar 2021, 09:25

Wasn't there also some talk about the French willingness to overlook (even help) Indian gravity nuke integration to Rafale? Or was it propaganda?
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 7135
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post23 Mar 2021, 15:43

optimist wrote: If they apply for and are approved for the F-35. It would be solely for what it can do for the defence of India, as there will be no transfer.



What a crazy concept LOL
Choose Crews
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 25924
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post28 Mar 2021, 21:14

BEWARE these four PDF pages attached are almost ONE DECADE OLD....
Year of Rafale? [blast from the past]
Apr 2012 Jon Lake

"First India, maybe the UAE, others could follow. Could 2012 prove that the Dassault Rafale is the world’s most wanted fighter? Jon Lake reports...."

Source: AIR International Magazine April 2012 Vol.82 No.4
Attachments
RAFALE Year Air International Apr 2012 pp4.pdf
(667.85 KiB) Downloaded 89 times
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

herciv

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 159
  • Joined: 04 May 2016, 08:24

Unread post22 Apr 2021, 09:25

spazsinbad wrote:BEWARE these four PDF pages attached are almost ONE DECADE OLD....
Year of Rafale? [blast from the past]
Apr 2012 Jon Lake

"First India, maybe the UAE, others could follow. Could 2012 prove that the Dassault Rafale is the world’s most wanted fighter? Jon Lake reports...."

Source: AIR International Magazine April 2012 Vol.82 No.4

And this Jon Lake is well known for its indefectible support of Thypoon.

Something else :
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/china-r ... rt-2288283
""The J-20 has been deployed by the PLAAF at the Hotan air base and they have been flying close to the Indian territory near Ladakh and adjoining areas. The deployment of strategic bomber aircraft is also still on by the Chinese," government sources told ANI.

The move by the Chinese Air Force to redeploy their latest and most capable aircraft at air bases near Ladakh comes soon after India started rapidly operationalising the Rafale fighter jets, five of which have joined the Air Force and three to four more will join in a couple of months, the sources said."
Currently since Yesterday there are 18 rafale in India under a special F3-R version with indian specifics and F4 ready.
PreviousNext

Return to F-35 versus XYZ

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests