Is the F-35 stealthier than the F-22?

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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henshao

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Unread post05 Sep 2022, 03:01

Is the F-35 stealthier than the F-22?
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Corsair1963

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Unread post05 Sep 2022, 04:09

Yes, at least is some respects... of course that shouldn't be a surprise. Both the F-22 and F-35 were developed by Lockheed Martin. While, the Lightning arrived nearly a decade later.
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linkomart

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Unread post05 Sep 2022, 06:01

F-35 pilots think they have the stealthiest plane.
F-22 pilots think their jet is the stealthiest.

both are right.

I get :roll: when some "expert" says that F-35 has -35 dB and F-22 har -22 dB RCS. or whatever number.

If someone says that the RCS from the F-number is -20 dBsm in the forward sector (+-20 deg az, +-20 deg elev) at 3 GHz, average values both polarisations, then I at least know he understand what the measurements show.

RCS is not only a number, and Stealth is not only RCS and...... well. Both win.

regards.
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Unread post05 Sep 2022, 06:21

linkomart wrote:F-35 pilots think they have the stealthiest plane.
F-22 pilots think their jet is the stealthiest.

both are right.

I get :roll: when some "expert" says that F-35 has -35 dB and F-22 har -22 dB RCS. or whatever number.

If someone says that the RCS from the F-number is -20 dBsm in the forward sector (+-20 deg az, +-20 deg elev) at 3 GHz, average values both polarisations, then I at least know he understand what the measurements show.

RCS is not only a number, and Stealth is not only RCS and...... well. Both win.

regards.


I am sure much was learned from the development of the F-22 and incorporated into the F-35. Yet, only a handful of people know the real truth as such data is of course highly classified.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post05 Sep 2022, 09:03

There are so many things that go under the term "stealth" that it's not possible to categorially say which one is stealthier.

Do we mean radar stealth? Like linkomart said, what frequencies are we talking about? It might be that F-22 is stealthier in low frequencies and F-35 in higher frequencies or then it might not be so. What azimuth and elevation are we talking about and are we talking only about monostatic radars or bi/multistatic ones?

RF stealth also encompasses suppressing active RF signals. What LPI features their radars have and how exactly they are implemented? How does MADL compare to IFDL when it comes to detectability? If either one is transmitting with Link 16, then both of their RF stealth is significantly compromised. Of course Link 16 transmissions would be avoided in situations where that might be a problem.

How about IR stealth? F-35 has one high-bypass turbofan which is better for IR emissions than two low-bypass turbofans in F-22, although F-22 likely compensates pretty well with their exaust nozzles, larger size and less need for afterburner. How do their cooling systems and coatings compare?

In visual signature F-35 wins due to being significantly smaller, although the importance of that is quite low these days.

Official statements seem to indicate that F-35 is slightly stealthier than F-22 overall, although the difference is pretty meaningless in real world. Especially since they would be employed differently with F-22 taking advantage of their higher raw performance.
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Unread post05 Sep 2022, 22:46

hornetfinn wrote:There are so many things that go under the term "stealth" that it's not possible to categorially say which one is stealthier.

Do we mean radar stealth? Like linkomart said, what frequencies are we talking about? It might be that F-22 is stealthier in low frequencies and F-35 in higher frequencies or then it might not be so. What azimuth and elevation are we talking about and are we talking only about monostatic radars or bi/multistatic ones?

RF stealth also encompasses suppressing active RF signals. What LPI features their radars have and how exactly they are implemented? How does MADL compare to IFDL when it comes to detectability? If either one is transmitting with Link 16, then both of their RF stealth is significantly compromised. Of course Link 16 transmissions would be avoided in situations where that might be a problem.

How about IR stealth? F-35 has one high-bypass turbofan which is better for IR emissions than two low-bypass turbofans in F-22, although F-22 likely compensates pretty well with their exhaust nozzles, larger size and less need for afterburner. How do their cooling systems and coatings compare?

In visual signature F-35 wins due to being significantly smaller, although the importance of that is quite low these days.

Official statements seem to indicate that F-35 is slightly stealthier than F-22 overall, although the difference is pretty meaningless in real world. Especially since they would be employed differently with F-22 taking advantage of their higher raw performance.



Actually, hard to see any real advantage for the F-22 over the F-35 in real world conditions. Even within the Air Superiority Role.While, the Raptor is much more expensive to both operate and maintain.

Further, the F-35 is much more versatile. Which, makes the case for maintaining the small pool of Raptors more and more questionable by the year....

Which, is why I personally don't see the F-22 being around much past 2030. If, it lasts that long....(Think F-14/Super Hornet)

"IMHO"
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henshao

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Unread post05 Sep 2022, 22:51

There were several quotes that got nuked which I'd love to see again
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spazsinbad

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Unread post06 Sep 2022, 01:20

henshao wrote:There were several quotes that got nuked which I'd love to see again

Please elaborate. Where/When/What is the gist/About What airframe/Why. Thanks.
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henshao

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Unread post06 Sep 2022, 02:40

in the vein of "quotes of officials stating the RCS of the F-35 is lower than the F-22"
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spazsinbad

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Unread post06 Sep 2022, 03:21

henshao wrote:in the vein of "quotes of officials stating the RCS of the F-35 is lower than the F-22"

You can suggest where you saw these quotes. As much information is required to 'recover' these quotes if INDEED they have been nuked. I can recall few but can't recall details because the quotes were very general, lacking specific details.

BTW what does NUKED mean? The quotes here 06 Jun 2014 by General Hostage are still here & would be on this forum.
Gen. Mike Hostage On The F-35; No Growlers Needed When War Starts [LONG ARTICLE best read at URL]
06 Jun 2014 COLIN CLARK

"...stealth is not invisibility, especially for fighters that must have tails for maneuverability (rather than the B-2 stealth bomber’s tailless “flying wing” design). Both F-22s and F-35s will be spotted at range by low frequency radar. The F-35’s cross section is much smaller than the F-22’s, but that does not mean, Hostage concedes, that the F-35 is necessarily superior to the F-22 when we go to war. In fact, Hostage says that it takes eight F-35s to do what two F-22s can handle.

“The F-35 is geared to go out and take down the surface targets,” says Hostage, leaning forward. The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.” But stealth — the ability to elude or greatly complicate an enemy’s ability to find and destroy an aircraft using a combination of design, tactics and technology — is not a magic pill, Hostage reminds us...."

Source: https://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/gen ... ar-starts/
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ricnunes

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Unread post06 Sep 2022, 12:34

henshao wrote:in the vein of "quotes of officials stating the RCS of the F-35 is lower than the F-22"


That was me posting that statement and how did my statement got "NUKED" (whatever that means) when and re-posting Spaz's post we have this:
spazsinbad wrote:
Gen. Mike Hostage On The F-35; No Growlers Needed When War Starts [LONG ARTICLE best read at URL]
06 Jun 2014 COLIN CLARK

"...stealth is not invisibility, especially for fighters that must have tails for maneuverability (rather than the B-2 stealth bomber’s tailless “flying wing” design). Both F-22s and F-35s will be spotted at range by low frequency radar. The F-35’s cross section is much smaller than the F-22’s, but that does not mean, Hostage concedes, that the F-35 is necessarily superior to the F-22 when we go to war. In fact, Hostage says that it takes eight F-35s to do what two F-22s can handle.

“The F-35 is geared to go out and take down the surface targets,” says Hostage, leaning forward. The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.” But stealth — the ability to elude or greatly complicate an enemy’s ability to find and destroy an aircraft using a combination of design, tactics and technology — is not a magic pill, Hostage reminds us...."

Source: https://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/gen ... ar-starts/


And further more, Gen. Bogdan confirmed what Gen. Hostage said:
https://www.airforcemag.com/article/The ... -Approach/
“I would say that General Hostage … is accurate in his statement about the simple stealthiness of the F-35 [with regard] to other airplanes,” Bogdan said in the interview. The statement was accurate for radar cross section, as measured in decibels, and range of detectability, he said, and he scoffed at the notion that anyone can tell how stealthy an aircraft is just by looking at it.



I would say that Gen. Mike Hostage knows more about the subject than you and me combined... BOOOOMMM! :wink:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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henshao

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Unread post06 Sep 2022, 18:22

ricnunes wrote:I would say that Gen. Mike Hostage knows more about the subject than you and me combined... BOOOOMMM! :wink:


???

spazsinbad wrote:
henshao wrote:in the vein of "quotes of officials stating the RCS of the F-35 is lower than the F-22"

You can suggest where you saw these quotes. As much information is required to 'recover' these quotes if INDEED they have been nuked. I can recall few but can't recall details because the quotes were very general, lacking specific details.


I don't want to get into backseat moderator territory, those who know, know
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Unread post06 Sep 2022, 19:04

henshao wrote:
ricnunes wrote:I would say that Gen. Mike Hostage knows more about the subject than you and me combined... BOOOOMMM! :wink:

???
spazsinbad wrote:
henshao wrote:in the vein of "quotes of officials stating the RCS of the F-35 is lower than the F-22"

You can suggest where you saw these quotes. As much information is required to 'recover' these quotes if INDEED they have been nuked. I can recall few but can't recall details because the quotes were very general, lacking specific details.

I don't want to get into backseat moderator territory, those who know, know

Cute. Then what does this mean and WHY say it? "There were several quotes that got nuked which I'd love to see again"
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Unread post06 Sep 2022, 19:48

spazsinbad wrote:Cute. Then what does this mean and WHY say it? "There were several quotes that got nuked which I'd love to see again"


The question was asked in the "J-20 goes operational again" thread.

Several posts including some that had quotes in them (such as mine that had the above quote) were deleted for being off topic and Henshao was asked to open a new thread.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post06 Sep 2022, 19:58

basher54321 wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Cute. Then what does this mean and WHY say it? "There were several quotes that got nuked which I'd love to see again"


The question was asked in the "J-20 goes operational again" thread.

Several posts including some that had quotes in them (such as mine that had the above quote) were deleted for being off topic and Henshao was asked to open a new thread.

OK - thanks for the explanation. Not often do I go to any other sub-forum except to post stuff about old aircraft.

J-20 thread: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=55903&p=424223&hilit=operational#p424223
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