F-35A vs KF-X

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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ricnunes

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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 15:13

zerion wrote:I saw it at least once, but it’s totally subject to the accuracy of the reporters, so it could easily be fake news.

Edit: found this
Block 2 would add internal weapon bays, which Block 1 would be compatible with but not have.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/kf- ... am-010647/

Report is from 2013

Block 2 would carry weapons internally, a provision for which would be made in the Block 1 design.

http://aviationweek.com/awin/list-kf-x-opponents-grows


Thanks for the heads up, zerion. :thumb:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post19 Oct 2019, 10:02

mixelflick wrote:Horrible idea, this Block 1, 2 and 3 IMO..

Makes it unwieldy out of the gate, and there's no guarantee they ever get to block 2 standard, let alone block 3. This strategy is most likely driven by the fact they know they're nowhere near block 2 and 3, at least as they've defined it.


Not necessarily, there are a lot of countries out there that may want a little more than an F-16, but don't necessarily need an F-35 yet.

The Philippine air force for example is already in the final stages on their talks for F-16V block 70s for their Horizon 2 multi-role fighter procurement.
Read here:
https://pitzdefanalysis.blogspot.com/20 ... ogram.html
(More details on their Social media pages)

In 2022 however, they will begin Horizon 3. And its still early but talks are to get something a little heavier than an F-16.
Obvious choice is the F-35 but can they afford the maintenance and operational demands of a Stealth aircraft, I'm not so sure.

F/A-18, Rafale, and Typhoon are all being looked at, but none generated stronger sentiments than Korea's KF-X where the PH can join as a regional partner, they already have multiple defense agreements with Korea and a lot of their modern equipment such as fighters and frigates are being sourced there.

The Vietnamese air force is also interested in partnering up with Korea to get the KF-X. Photos of both the Ph and Vietnamese air force officials in front of the KF-X mock up surfaced this week, both considering a partnership with Korea on the program.

With China quickly taking the place of Russia as the new enemy of the free world, Asia is becoming the new frontline with countries there upgrading their armed services at a pace only seen before during the cold war.

So the market is there, not for Europe or the US, but for countries who want something more than Western 4th gens but can't quite get to 5th gen just yet.
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zerion

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Unread post03 Sep 2020, 17:05

South Korea unveils the first prototype of new KF-X fighter jet

South Korean aerospace giant KAI is progressing with the continued development of a fighter aircraft development program with the goal of producing an advanced multirole fighter for the country air forces https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eg9EgvtUcAA ... name=small.

The company has recently passed a major milestone marks the beginning of the final assembly process of the first fighter, where electronics, radar, and various other subsystems will be installed until the aircraft is officially rolled out in April 2021.

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Pics
https://twitter.com/ryankakiuchan/statu ... 55808?s=21

https://defence-blog.com/news/south-kor ... r-jet.html
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Unread post03 Sep 2020, 19:10

Man-oh-man, that thing sure does look like a Raptor..just sayin'.
Have F110, Block 70, will travel
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Unread post03 Sep 2020, 21:15

KF-X 시제 1호기 최종조립 돌입 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-RkHEzZYv0

A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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Unread post04 Sep 2020, 13:50

Still not buying it..

This appears to be an F-22/35 hybrid, with external weapons and quite likely under-powered if they stick with the proposed engines. But perhaps performance is just a small part of the objective. Someone said it before - it's a jobs program. That's what it looks like, anyway..

I understand some countries might not want (or can't get) an F-35, and want something a little more capable. Thing is, those aircraft are out there TODAY (from a variety of countries). Upgraded F-15's, 16's and 18's from the US. Later tranche Typhoons, Rafale's and of course all of Russia's 4++ gen Flankers and now (supposedly) the Mig-35. The Phillipines were used as an example.. I actually think Gripen might be a good fit for them. One of the few air arms in that category, but I can't see them flying and fighting effectively in F-35's, KF-X's etc.. Especially given what they're flown in the past.

I'll give the South Korean's this though: They're cutting metal and appear to be serious about it. I read where in additon to ordering engines, they've settled on a radar, Meteor/other advanced weapons and have their timeline. I did note however in said timeline a bit of "concurrency".

Since they're working with LM on this project, I find it hard to believe someone wouldn't avoid that mistake again...
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Unread post04 Sep 2020, 17:24

It lacks sawtooth edges in quite a few places. Maybe its more like Su-35S in RCS than F-22A...
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Unread post05 Sep 2020, 13:43

madrat wrote:It lacks sawtooth edges in quite a few places. Maybe its more like Su-35S in RCS than F-22A...


Can't be. If it is, it would be a colossal failure IMO. Any Flanker (including the SU-35) has a relatively large RCS. Even assuming it has SH like signature, that's going to balloon once you start hanging weapons off it. If I'm S. Korea, enlist LM expertise and what results is something with an SU-35-like RCS, I'd ask for my money back.

To justify this little experiment, KF-X is going to have to achieve an F-117 like RCS (or better) IMO.
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Unread post06 Sep 2020, 18:07

mixelflick wrote:
madrat wrote:It lacks sawtooth edges in quite a few places. Maybe its more like Su-35S in RCS than F-22A...


Can't be. If it is, it would be a colossal failure IMO. Any Flanker (including the SU-35) has a relatively large RCS. Even assuming it has SH like signature, that's going to balloon once you start hanging weapons off it. If I'm S. Korea, enlist LM expertise and what results is something with an SU-35-like RCS, I'd ask for my money back.

To justify this little experiment, KF-X is going to have to achieve an F-117 like RCS (or better) IMO.


They talked about phases, so first phase have low RCS airframe but external weapons. Second phase will have weapon bay (there is space for it) but no advanced RAM, only third phase can be consider real steatlh.

That was what they said earlier maybe they changed it.
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zerion

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Unread post06 Sep 2020, 18:36

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
madrat wrote:It lacks sawtooth edges in quite a few places. Maybe its more like Su-35S in RCS than F-22A...


Can't be. If it is, it would be a colossal failure IMO. Any Flanker (including the SU-35) has a relatively large RCS. Even assuming it has SH like signature, that's going to balloon once you start hanging weapons off it. If I'm S. Korea, enlist LM expertise and what results is something with an SU-35-like RCS, I'd ask for my money back.

To justify this little experiment, KF-X is going to have to achieve an F-117 like RCS (or better) IMO.


They talked about phases, so first phase have low RCS airframe but external weapons. Second phase will have weapon bay (there is space for it) but no advanced RAM, only third phase can be consider real steatlh.

That was what they said earlier maybe they changed it.


Plus this is a prototype, the X-35 lacks sawtooth in places where the production model has it.
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Unread post08 Sep 2020, 14:35

I guess you can't judge something until you see the final version of it.

Still, this is a really weird way of doing things. Or it may just be the American perspective... we didn't do a phase I, II or III F-117. Or any stealth aircraft that we manufactured. Sure you had prototypes on poles for RCS testing, chekout rides for envelope expansion etc..

I'm just surprised that S. Korea lacks either the expertise or $ to do the same - particularly working with LM? Perhaps not "stealth" as we know it at F-35 levels, but certainly something better than flying with external stores?? It may also be the recessed carriage they're talking about is some sort of breakthrough and the RCS is lower than what one would expect.

Frankly, I'd expect that kind of thing out of Russia - not S. Korea. We shall see...
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Unread post08 Sep 2020, 17:03

mixelflick wrote:I guess you can't judge something until you see the final version of it.

Still, this is a really weird way of doing things. Or it may just be the American perspective... we didn't do a phase I, II or III F-117. Or any stealth aircraft that we manufactured. Sure you had prototypes on poles for RCS testing, chekout rides for envelope expansion etc.

Do we really know all F-117A were built to the same standard? I have a feeling they were built like C-5A, where they were built to whatever passing standard of the time and they all probably had some minor deviations. But they were built in secrecy so we'll never know. We do know that 'upgrades' to them, like an LPI radar for all-weather strikes and AIM-120 support, kept getting rejected and there had to be an underlying reason.
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Unread post09 Sep 2020, 13:13

AIM-120 support?

First time I've heard of that. I did hear about carrying the Sidewinder on TFPP a few months back...
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Unread post09 Sep 2020, 23:19

mixelflick wrote:AIM-120 support?

First time I've heard of that. I did hear about carrying the Sidewinder on TFPP a few months back...

Look for information on F-117X and the theories behind what they could do with a retractable set of doors or screens concealing a radar.
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Unread post17 Oct 2020, 15:49

mixelflick wrote:Still not buying it..

This appears to be an F-22/35 hybrid, with external weapons and quite likely under-powered if they stick with the proposed engines. But perhaps performance is just a small part of the objective. Someone said it before - it's a jobs program. That's what it looks like, anyway..

I understand some countries might not want (or can't get) an F-35, and want something a little more capable. Thing is, those aircraft are out there TODAY (from a variety of countries). Upgraded F-15's, 16's and 18's from the US. Later tranche Typhoons, Rafale's and of course all of Russia's 4++ gen Flankers and now (supposedly) the Mig-35. The Phillipines were used as an example.. I actually think Gripen might be a good fit for them. One of the few air arms in that category, but I can't see them flying and fighting effectively in F-35's, KF-X's etc.. Especially given what they're flown in the past.

I'll give the South Korean's this though: They're cutting metal and appear to be serious about it. I read where in additon to ordering engines, they've settled on a radar, Meteor/other advanced weapons and have their timeline. I did note however in said timeline a bit of "concurrency".

Since they're working with LM on this project, I find it hard to believe someone wouldn't avoid that mistake again...


Man still up to that stupid narrative?

First off, KF-X has a better T/W ratio than Super Bug, F-35, F-16, EF-2000, Rafale and even has a better mil power TW ratio than F-15E. You just want to flame any non-US fighter jet program and gotten so far with your preference that you are simply blinded by your own narrative. Sort your stuff out. Kinematics wise it's a decent fighter jet to say the least.

Korea already is planning to buy 60 F-35As and is also planning to buy 20 additional F-36Bs for the AC so it's not even understandable why you are so unsatisfied on that side as well. Also, it's not like some other ministry other than MoD that is pushing for the KF-X program, especially it is the ROKAF who is pushing for the KF-X not Ministry of Trade, Industry and Energy. What's very ironic is that the "jobs program" narrative that you are pushing so often was the KF-16 program during the early 2000s, because back then MoTIE pushed through and funded the production of additional 20 airframes of KF-16s which frankly, the ROKAF was opposing. Woopsy, your narrative bites you.

I've written this before on this forum and would reiterate, that after T-50 and FA-50 program, ROKAF was very convinced that having a domestic jet was better long run than just out right buying everything from foreign suppliers. Currently T-50 variants have the highest operating figures within ROKAF of over 90%. None of the other jets come any close. Also, this year the maintenance costs for the 20 or so F-35As that ROKAF possess have been made public in the parliament and it was almost double that of F-15K per airframe, which the ROKAF was already mentioning (F-15Ks) as having "high maintenance fees".

"Mistake" lmao. RoK is just playing safe. It's not like it's 2030 and suddenly every 4.5th gen fighters are all obsolete. It's not like ROKAF would be using KF-X to go do some IA mission over Beijing or something. Remember N.Kor was, is and will going to be the main target of ROKAF.

You may place your doubts about KF-X being any cheaper than F-35 and I also doubt it being able to be sold outside of Korea and Indonesia but I am quite sure maintenance-wise it will be cheaper. All the logistics from various international suppliers could be avoided for a lot of critical components. We have already witnessed the sh*t show that Turkey was involved in on the JSF's side. Now that Turkey is out it is unlikely same kind of risk arises yet again but who knows, politics within US could be the problem later on.

Also, what makes operating F-35s difficult is the security standard and F-35 only services the US is demanding its operators, driving the cost very high. Of course it is still worth those cost but it's not like Korea could operate so much without sacrificing other things. We already know that the upgrading cost of block 3F aircrafts into block 4 would be in the region of $ 30 million IIRC. F-35 simply is a money pit. Don't think experts are so stupid so you could just simply counter argue them all by saying its not rational to not "just buy F-35". I've said this in this thread in the past and also have said the same thing in the F-3 thread.

Also as if the US would allow Korea to integrate Korean armaments in the F-35. You are the one doing the same mistake you did judging the F-3 program. ROKAF is already developing a stealth ACM based on the technologies gained by the offset of buying Taurus missiles, supersonic air-launched ASM based on SASM they were developing for over a decade and is even planning to develop hypersonic air to surface missile, anti radiation missile and other armaments and evaluating the possibilities of developing escort jammer based on the KF-X. Remember that the US is very hesitant in selling Prowler overseas to those who are not the member of the Five-Eyes like the Aussies. Korea wasn't even able to get HTS pods for its KF-16 wild weasels. With KF-X they would be a least able to do something regarding these matters.
Last edited by maro.kyo on 17 Oct 2020, 16:39, edited 4 times in total.
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