F-35 versus Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

vanshilar

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 403
  • Joined: 26 Aug 2015, 11:23

Unread post09 Oct 2016, 12:02

According to Laurie Hilditch, Eurofighter's head of the future requirements capture, the F-35's frontal-aspect stealth can be defeated by stationing interceptors and AWACS at a 25º to 30º angle to the F-35's most likely approach path to a target.


In other words, she bought into (or is at least peddling) the claim that the F-35 has frontal-aspect stealth only, like it's the J-20 or something. So it was probably just some simple simulation again.

Meanwhile, wouldn't the F-35 detect the emissions from the AWACS, and know how to get around them or shoot them down?

Additionally, I presume at the start of each engagement the AWACS are closer to the Typhoons. I wonder if the F-35 could pick up on the AWACS signals bouncing off of the Typhoons and use them to know where the Typhoons are :devil:
Offline

charlielima223

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1294
  • Joined: 12 Jan 2014, 19:26

Unread post09 Oct 2016, 12:11

vanshilar wrote:
In other words, she bought into (or is at least peddling) the claim that the F-35 has frontal-aspect stealth only, like it's the J-20 or something. So it was probably just some simple simulation again.

Meanwhile, wouldn't the F-35 detect the emissions from the AWACS, and know how to get around them or shoot them down?

Additionally, I presume at the start of each engagement the AWACS are closer to the Typhoons. I wonder if the F-35 could pick up on the AWACS signals bouncing off of the Typhoons and use them to know where the Typhoons are :devil:


I think I read somewhere that the F-22 and F-35 have the capability with their EW suites with their sensor fusion that they have a display that tells them their radar spike signature or something. Also that the F-22 and F-35 also have a visual representation of some kind of the electronic battle space. If those two features are indeed true, F-22 and F-35 would have a very easy time in evading as well as knowing where and when to strike.
Offline
User avatar

botsing

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 892
  • Joined: 05 Dec 2015, 18:09
  • Location: The Netherlands

Unread post09 Oct 2016, 12:36

vanshilar wrote:
According to Laurie Hilditch, Eurofighter's head of the future requirements capture, the F-35's frontal-aspect stealth can be defeated by stationing interceptors and AWACS at a 25º to 30º angle to the F-35's most likely approach path to a target.


In other words, she bought into (or is at least peddling) the claim that the F-35 has frontal-aspect stealth only, like it's the J-20 or something. So it was probably just some simple simulation again.

I think this has to do with two spikes in the radar deflection of the F-35 around the 30 degree angle from the front:

Image

If those spikes are real then you have the biggest chance of detecting an F-35 that is moving towards your position at that angle

At the time of his (it's a male) remarks these RCS calculations were about all they could build on. Those calculations did not take into account RAM and other stealth tweaks.
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 6963
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post09 Oct 2016, 15:16

vanshilar wrote:
According to Laurie Hilditch, Eurofighter's head of the future requirements capture, the F-35's frontal-aspect stealth can be defeated by stationing interceptors and AWACS at a 25º to 30º angle to the F-35's most likely approach path to a target.


In other words, she bought into (or is at least peddling) the claim that the F-35 has frontal-aspect stealth only, like it's the J-20 or something. So it was probably just some simple simulation again.

Meanwhile, wouldn't the F-35 detect the emissions from the AWACS, and know how to get around them or shoot them down?

Additionally, I presume at the start of each engagement the AWACS are closer to the Typhoons. I wonder if the F-35 could pick up on the AWACS signals bouncing off of the Typhoons and use them to know where the Typhoons are :devil:


If you're asking "would the F-35 detect the trap?" The answer is a resounding yes.

A quick aside:

These little scenarios always make the fox a shotgun equipped hunter themselves.

They always take loads of enemy assets to find a single F-35, once the F-35 is found the scenarios automatically equate that to killed-- yet In this case the Typhoons and AWACS are amazingly undetected! Even though they are detectable the moment they take off!! And if seen=killed, how do they live to spring their "trap" on the LO asset?

Double standards of peace
Choose Crews
Offline

les_paul59

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 330
  • Joined: 23 Jan 2016, 05:57

Unread post09 Oct 2016, 17:27

The problem with that scenario is how does the awacs know what 20-30 degrees off center of the f-35 is, if no one can detect the f-35 to begin with. It's not great logic, and the f-35 will easily see the radio station size emissions coming from the awacs and adjust it's flight path to stay undetected or simply shoot the awacs down, I can't imagine that triangulating the position of an awacs with a four-ship of f-35's will be that hard.
Offline

eloise

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1965
  • Joined: 27 Mar 2015, 16:05

Unread post09 Oct 2016, 18:25

botsing wrote:I think this has to do with two spikes in the radar deflection of the F-35 around the 30 degree angle from the front:

Image

If those spikes are real then you have the biggest chance of detecting an F-35 that is moving towards your position at that angle

Small note : those are spikes for 10 Ghz , AWACS radar work at lower frequency around 4-0.5 Ghz so the reflection lobes will be wider
Image
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3456
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post10 Oct 2016, 09:18

eloise wrote:
botsing wrote:I think this has to do with two spikes in the radar deflection of the F-35 around the 30 degree angle from the front:

Image

If those spikes are real then you have the biggest chance of detecting an F-35 that is moving towards your position at that angle

Small note : those are spikes for 10 Ghz , AWACS radar work at lower frequency around 4-0.5 Ghz so the reflection lobes will be wider
Image


Yes, the return lobes will be wider with lower frequency, but the radar would still need to be within the same narrow azimuth range in relation to F-35 to be able to exploit the spike in any way. The radar transmit beam has to hit the F-35 in the right angle and the be reflected back to same radar as all these radars are monostatic. Bistatic radars could theoretically use the phenomena but would require that both the transmitting and receiving radar be at exactly right directions. That'd be so difficult to achieve that it would be pretty much impossible in real life.
Offline

arian

Banned

  • Posts: 1293
  • Joined: 23 Dec 2014, 09:25

Unread post10 Oct 2016, 23:10

A magic bullet is not a solution.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 25647
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post17 Feb 2017, 06:32

Austrians are disappointed with their TYPHOID deal: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-austr ... SKBN15V118
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline
User avatar

count_to_10

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3300
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2012, 15:38

Unread post05 Mar 2017, 16:27

So, I was looking at some F-35 airshow videos, and noticing just how far back the F-35's wing is on the aircraft. Curious, I checked the top-down images available on Wikipedia, and it really looks like the main wing of the F-35 is actually further back on it's fuselage than the main wings of the Eurocanards.

Image
Image
Einstein got it backward: one cannot prevent a war without preparing for it.

Uncertainty: Learn it, love it, live it.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 25647
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post18 Mar 2021, 07:32

10 page PDF from AirForces Monthly April 2021 attached about the NEW Typhoon AESA Radar from whence graphics come.
Next-Gen Radar
Apr 2021 Jon Lake

"Is Typhoon's new radar the world's best? Jon Lake investigates.

Typhoon’s lack of AESA radar has been identified as a disadvantage on the export market. Now, however, multiple options are emerging for potential new and existing operators, while Typhoons retrofitted with the unique ECRS.Mk 2 radar are set to transform UK air power capability.

Leonardo is in the final stages of developing a revolutionary new radar for the Eurofighter Typhoon. Known as ‘Radar Two’, or more formally as ECRS Mk 2 (where ECRS is an abbreviation of European Common Radar System), it embodies advanced electronic attack (EA) and electronic warfare (EW) capabilities, and Leonardo has described it as the world’s most advanced fighter radar.

It promises to enable the Typhoon to operate in even the most challenging contested environments, on its own and autonomously. This kind of environment would once have been thought the exclusive domain of stealthy, fifth generation aircraft.

With the new radar, RAF Typhoon pilots will be able to locate and identify enemy air defence systems and suppress them using high-powered jamming - adding the suppression/destruction of enemy air defences (SEAD/DEAD) role to the aircraft's multi-role mission set...."

Source: AirForces Monthly Magazine April 2021 #397
Attachments
Typhoon AESA Rader AirForces Monthly Apr 2021 pp10.pdf
(2.06 MiB) Downloaded 73 times
AESAtyphoonWideFieldRegardRepositioner.gif
TyphoonRadarCutaway.jpg
TyphoonRadarSwash.jpg
NewTYPHOONcockpitDisplayPerhapsZOOMperhaps.jpg
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5069
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Nashua NH USA

Unread post18 Mar 2021, 13:09

so that last picture is saying the Tiffy is being studied to possibly incorporate some things the Bolt/Panther/Stubby had from the get go. Good for it. I do recall it being said that it had no more power generation to spare though, so power use requirements of these electronics will be a driving factor.
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
-PFD Systems Engineer
-PATRIOT Systems Engineer
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3089
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post18 Mar 2021, 14:27

spazsinbad wrote:
Next-Gen Radar

"Is Typhoon's new radar the world's best? Jon Lake investigates.

...in the final stages of developing a revolutionary new [AESA] radar for the Eurofighter Typhoon.


Yeah, I've been 'hearing' (reading) about this since at least a decade ago... :roll:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 25647
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post31 Mar 2021, 18:26

50 page PDF AIR International Magazine June 2012 Vol.82 No.6 RAF TYPHOON Special from YEAR 2012 attached.
Attachments
RAF Typhoon Special Air International Jun 2012 pp50.pdf
(5.87 MiB) Downloaded 27 times
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Previous

Return to F-35 versus XYZ

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests