F-35 vs Su-30/35

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3712
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post03 Sep 2013, 11:44

zero-one wrote:I agree with all your points,

mainly we both believe that future Air battles will comprise of both WVR and BVR tactics, as to how equally that cake will be sliced is a debate for another day entierly.

Just to add, to your points about Russian fighters slowly emphasizing BVR as well, the new models of the R-77 missile actually outrange the AMRAAM.


How do you know that? RVV-SD has max. 110 km range (RVV-AE 80 km max launch range in frontal hemisphere) according to Russians. No official AMRAAM range values have been published, but usually seem to vary between 50-180 km depending on variant and source. Also which version of AMRAAM are you talking about, as there are huge difference in range between AIM-120A and AIM-120D for example. While R-77 and derivatives are larger missiles, they seem (from published info) to have more basic guidance system than corresponding AMRAAM version resulting in less range as trajectory is not as optimized. Of course RVV-SD probably has more advanced guidance system than original AIM-120A.
Offline

haavarla

Banned

  • Posts: 873
  • Joined: 28 Jul 2009, 19:36

Unread post03 Sep 2013, 15:50

The RVV-SD figures are at Max range, incoming target and probably at a spesific high altitude and speed which we do not know.

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/510/

But then again that goes for AIM-120 as well, and 180km!? where does that come from?

On a side note, there can never be enough Vapors ;)
Attachments
0_b31c4_2a7bc2c7_XXL.jpg
0_b3173_a929edb7_XXL.jpg
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5188
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Nashua NH USA

Unread post03 Sep 2013, 19:32

"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
-PFD Systems Engineer
-PATRIOT Systems Engineer
Offline

haavarla

Banned

  • Posts: 873
  • Joined: 28 Jul 2009, 19:36

Unread post03 Sep 2013, 21:34

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:180KM seems to come from this site

http://www.rusarm.com/arhiv/n2_2008/zar ... uh-vozduh/


Ok, i used Google translator and it seems its about the RVV-SD missile.

I havent seen any other figures on this missile, and we do not know in which shape, size and weight it will come(if it come out at all as an 180km A2A missile..)

Anyway, i have a very high BS smell on this one.

The missile would most likely be too large for Pak-Fa main W-bay..
If it actual has a range at 180km at all...
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5188
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Nashua NH USA

Unread post03 Sep 2013, 21:41

that section of the article was about the AIM-120C-8 (D) outranging the C-7, I also google translated the entire section. Of course these numbers are all head on transsonic idealized numbers, that is one consistant value with AAMs. the only variable in missile range numbers are launch altitude and target altitude. It is always good to keep in mind however that at launch conditions of 60kft and 1.6+M missile range will be vastly improved as will top speed.
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
-PFD Systems Engineer
-PATRIOT Systems Engineer
Offline

haavarla

Banned

  • Posts: 873
  • Joined: 28 Jul 2009, 19:36

Unread post03 Sep 2013, 22:21

I also want to point out that the Russian AWACS killer missile that was unveiled at MAKS 2007 or was it 05.. could even be older
I am talking about the KS-172, uber AWACS killer missile.

It was an full scale dummie missile.
It was shown for a few years, but has the last couple of years disepared, probably died a silent Death.

I think the "no funding" Axe killed it off.
The A2A Version did originate from some BUK G2A missile design.
The physical size of that thing was not far from a smaller "Club" size.. one cant help Wonder if such a missile would ever be effective from an Jet platform..
Well it might on a Tu-22M3 or larger jet. But then it would take up an entire Weapon station, which i think would be a sin. The Carrier Club killers are most likely much more prioritized here.

The R-27 missiles has also had an terrible funding over all these years..

So i'm not holding my breath over this RVV-SD missile..
Last edited by haavarla on 03 Sep 2013, 22:57, edited 3 times in total.
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5188
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Nashua NH USA

Unread post03 Sep 2013, 22:23

might as well be using the ASAT missile for A2A at that size.
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
-PFD Systems Engineer
-PATRIOT Systems Engineer
Offline

wrightwing

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3909
  • Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 15:22

Unread post04 Sep 2013, 08:13

zero-one wrote:Just to add, to your points about Russian fighters slowly emphasizing BVR as well, the new models of the R-77 missile actually outrange the AMRAAM.


They outrange the C5 model. They don't outrange the C7/D variants.

However I dont think this is very useful since firing a missile at long ranges greatly reduces its Pk against fighters. I believe the optimum kill range for BVR shots lay somewhere around the 20KM range,


This would depend greatly on a number of variables. Head on/tail, altitude/speed of launch aircraft vs. altitude/speed of target, target's awareness of the launch aircraft, target's awareness of the AMRAAM launch, countermeasures employed, etc... The Pk of stealth aircraft/LPI FCRs will be higher than previous generation aircraft, even if all other factors are the same, due to the added element of surprise. This is where launching outside the detection range of MLD/MAWs systems, could actually be of benefit (and stealthy aircraft will have the advantage against conventional aircraft, in being able to launch from the most advantageous position.
Offline

haavarla

Banned

  • Posts: 873
  • Joined: 28 Jul 2009, 19:36

Unread post09 Oct 2013, 11:03

Something that has gone under the Radar for some time now. At least for me..
The russian MoD seems to have signed a New deal With KNAAZ(KnAAPO sukhoi) for a Whole Sq of Su-30M2(two seater) as well as the continuation of the Su-35S Production.

http://foto.rg.ru/photos/6c39137d/10.html#3


KnAAZ did rolled out four Su-30M2, With ten New Su-27SM3 at the end of 2012.
Offline

jetnerd

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 165
  • Joined: 24 Apr 2009, 01:22
  • Location: Southern U.S.

Unread post09 Oct 2013, 22:10

Look at the cockpit in image #15 and put it side by side with the F-35's to really see the generational difference between the 2 jets.

http://foto.rg.ru/photos/6c39137d/15.html#15


Not to underestimate the SU-30M2's prowess. But the photo really shows how the F-35 is really the new game.
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 7885
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post10 Oct 2013, 04:49

bossovich wrote:i also thought that the f-35 was completely superior until i read what was on this page: http://www.f-16.net/news_article4416.html and now im a bit confused



ELP and with several other F-35 Critics like Bill Sweetman have lost all credibility. Honestly, I can't wait to see how they explain themselves after the F-35 enters full squadron service and becomes highly successful........


I for one will give them no quarter to hide..... :wink:
Offline
User avatar

blindpilot

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1342
  • Joined: 01 Mar 2013, 18:21
  • Location: Colorado

Unread post10 Oct 2013, 06:00

" unnamed source stated ... a presentation was given by an[other unnamed] industry air combat threat assessment expert to [some more unnamed] defense officials of a NATO country "

from the F-35 critic primer vocabulary guide.
"Unnamed" = I have been so embarrassed by the discredting of this individual that I can't tell you who he is or you will laugh at me.
"Industry expert" = Boeing/other competing company salesman
"defense official" = government employee who types up (or once typed up) reports for a legislative aid of the opposition party..... or did until he was fired ten years ago ...

Hope that helps with the confusion.( I used to work in those places, long ago in a galaxy far away.)

BP.
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3712
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post10 Oct 2013, 09:20

jetnerd wrote:Look at the cockpit in image #15 and put it side by side with the F-35's to really see the generational difference between the 2 jets.

http://foto.rg.ru/photos/6c39137d/15.html#15


Not to underestimate the SU-30M2's prowess. But the photo really shows how the F-35 is really the new game.


It definitely looks rather dated, more like something from the 80's. On the other hand Su-35 has much more modern (and pilot-friendly) looking cockpit. I'd say it looks to be somewhere between F-22 and F-35 cockpits.
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3712
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post10 Oct 2013, 11:28

I find it very interesting that Russia is producing so many different variants of Su-27 derivatives. They have very recently bought at least Su-35S, Su-30M, Su-30SM, Su-34, Su-27SM, Su-27SM3 as new built aircraft and then upgraded older aircraft to various standards. It would seem more efficient to have fewer different versions, like just Su-35S and Su-34 and one or two upgrade versions. Of course they are the most expensive versions, but also the most potent ones. I think having fewer versions would result in lower total costs (especially operational costs) for the same combat capability.
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2543
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post10 Oct 2013, 12:31

Well its not hard to see why, In my oppinion the Flanker family is Russia's most potent design, In the hands of good pilots it can be a very serious threat to NATO planes.

Instead of developing new designes, why not just rebuild it, higly modified, add thrust vectoring, PESA or AESA, Canarads and new EW suits. Like what Boeing did to the Hornet when they transformed it to the Super Hornet
Its probably the closest thing they have to a Raptor right now

it can certainly replicate most of the Raptor's Airshow maneuvers, and certainly has some maneuvers that I havnt seen the Raptor do.
Last night an article posted on a facebook fan page declared that the Su-35 was a 5th generation fighter, that lacked a bit of stealth.

Its a laughable claim in my oppinion, but Boeing does the same with the Superhornet, back in the early 2000s they really pushed that the Superhornet was a 5th gen fighter
PreviousNext

Return to F-35 versus XYZ

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests