F-35 vs Su-30/35

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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river_otter

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Unread post02 Jan 2012, 11:42

hcobb wrote:Picture of B-2 "non existent" IR emissions: http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/i ... _IR_lg.gif


Even the website posting that pic describes it as, "Speaking of which, see the graphic below of a B-2 Spirit stealth bomber at relatively close range, lifted from EADS Eurofighter’s presentation to the Norwegian government as they touted their own aircraft’s advanced IRST cueing sensor with 70 km range." What's a "relatively close range"? According to http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-276700.html it's a B-2 flying a known course straight down the Farnborough runway, at a range of half a mile and 500 ft. altitude from the IRST. And the tracking was actually optical, not by the IRST itself. For all that, this the kind of difference you see between the airplane and the background in the IRST image of a normal aircraft:

Image

Absolutely zero IR signature? Of course not. But so little that you'll see it with your eyes before your IRST will be able to distinguish it from empty sky? Looks like that's a real possibility.
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munny

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Unread post02 Jan 2012, 12:32

unrelated, but while the discussion is about IR signatures, this is pretty neat....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pftna34TbJU
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flighthawk128

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Unread post02 Jan 2012, 21:30

Yeah, but that's only when it takes off. If an enemy aircraft gets close enough to see that, it should be a smoking wreck on the ground. :thumb:
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munny

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Unread post03 Jul 2013, 12:38

Confirmation that the RAAF hi fidelity simulations where it defeated "advanced" red air included the Su-35. Low band radar was also used to support the Sukhoi in the simulations and the F-35 still achieved an exchange ratio with a minimum of 6-1.

http://bit.ly/122PuXE

"Have you done differential simulations of, once again, Su-35 - 2V2, 4V4, 8V8, 4V2 and 2V4, for instance?
(a) Have you done that using widely different engagement geometrics and sensor weapon mixes – in other words, not head-to-head co-altitude?
(b) If so, what sort of runs have you conducted in that regard?
(c) Have you done simulations of F-35s versus any six aircraft that have HF over-the-horizon radar, working with your threat group in terms of their integrated air defence system?
(d) Have you done any simulations, using adversary HF over-the-horizon radar equipped naval surface vessels as a component of IADS?
(e) Have you done any simulations using current generation passive detection systems, incorporated as additional constructive elements of an adversary IADS against the F-35 scenarios?"

"Response:
(a) – (e)
Yes."
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bigjku

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Unread post03 Jul 2013, 13:46

munny wrote:Confirmation that the RAAF hi fidelity simulations where it defeated "advanced" red air included the Su-35. Low band radar was also used to support the Sukhoi in the simulations and the F-35 still achieved an exchange ratio with a minimum of 6-1.

http://bit.ly/122PuXE

"Have you done differential simulations of, once again, Su-35 - 2V2, 4V4, 8V8, 4V2 and 2V4, for instance?
(a) Have you done that using widely different engagement geometrics and sensor weapon mixes – in other words, not head-to-head co-altitude?
(b) If so, what sort of runs have you conducted in that regard?
(c) Have you done simulations of F-35s versus any six aircraft that have HF over-the-horizon radar, working with your threat group in terms of their integrated air defence system?
(d) Have you done any simulations, using adversary HF over-the-horizon radar equipped naval surface vessels as a component of IADS?
(e) Have you done any simulations using current generation passive detection systems, incorporated as additional constructive elements of an adversary IADS against the F-35 scenarios?"

"Response:
(a) – (e)
Yes."


I can't imagine having to sit around and answer this kind of nonsense as a professional. What do they think they are testing the F-35 against in simulated environments? The Sopwith Camel? An ME-109?
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neurotech

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Unread post03 Jul 2013, 20:47

bigjku wrote:I can't imagine having to sit around and answer this kind of nonsense as a professional. What do they think they are testing the F-35 against in simulated environments? The Sopwith Camel? An ME-109?

When the F/A-18E/F was being readied for operational use, we flew a significant number of simulator missions to verify certain weapons modes worked as expected. This continued after the first F/A-18E dropped JDAMs on targets over Iraq in 2001. Too bad I couldn't use my simulator time to get the paperwork and fly as a rated pilot.

The simulator had AESA based on a early APG-79 prototype, we flew against a variety of threats, including so called Su-30s. We briefed on the scenario that the AESA/AMRAAM could engage a Su-30 in BVR, and that the longer range missiles produced enough smoke to be detected visually and electronically and then avoided, if fired at long range. What that means is that both jets would have to close within about 20nm for a successful engagement and the AMRAAM could handle the engagement.

The scenario was that both sides had roughly equal numbers of jets.

With OLS and L-band radar on a Su-30, against a F-35, the results would be similar, in that the missiles carried by the Su-30 wouldn't be effective outside 20nm and the F-35 could see them with EODAS and avoid them. This assumes both aircraft know where each other is.

The F-35 with an HMD and AIM-9X II HOBS missiles, would be difficult for a Su-30 to achieve a kill, even with the F-35 located.
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haavarla

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Unread post18 Aug 2013, 12:25

Just wanted to post some News on New Flankers:

12 Su-30SM will go to the airbase at Domna

And later this year the first line squadron of Su-35S will be deployed this year, to Dzemga AB
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bayernfan

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Unread post20 Aug 2013, 20:43

Sorry if my questions are too rookie (I'm new to this forum):
I heard somewhere else that even F-35 has superior stealth capability comparing to Su-30/35, but when it open its radar trying to track the enemy fighter, F-35 will allow the enemy radar to discover it more easily hence lose the stealth advantage during A2A combat.
Also, if in a close dogfight, will the stealth of F-35 make it harder for enemy fighter to lock?
Thanks guys.
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hb_pencil

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Unread post20 Aug 2013, 20:54

bayernfan wrote:Sorry if my questions are too rookie (I'm new to this forum):
I heard somewhere else that even F-35 has superior stealth capability comparing to Su-30/35, but when it open its radar trying to track the enemy fighter, F-35 will allow the enemy radar to discover it more easily hence lose the stealth advantage during A2A combat.



Tough to say, but probably not. The new generation of AESA radar may allow the F-35 to operate its radar undetected or untraceably. Second, the fighter has an advanced communication datalink that allows it to operate with other fighter's data to track and lock with its missiles. Also it has a bevy of passive sensors that it can rely on. So while the first one might be true, the fighter by no means needs to rely on that system alone.

bayernfan wrote:Also, if in a close dogfight, will the stealth of F-35 make it harder for enemy fighter to lock?
Thanks guys.


From the looks of it, probably. There was a video posted of a rafale/F-22 dogfight where it was pretty obvious the french sensor system was having difficulty tracking the F-22. It looks like this was a specific problem when facing the raptor... but it could just be normal operation of the aircraft's detection systems.
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Prinz_Eugn

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Unread post20 Aug 2013, 22:16

bayernfan wrote:Sorry if my questions are too rookie (I'm new to this forum):
I heard somewhere else that even F-35 has superior stealth capability comparing to Su-30/35, but when it open its radar trying to track the enemy fighter, F-35 will allow the enemy radar to discover it more easily hence lose the stealth advantage during A2A combat.


Partially true, shooting radio waves into the great beyond always raises the chances of detection, but there are a few big caveats as hb_pencil pointed out. The only thing I would add is that the F-35 has a great chance of being able to jam (or out-jam) the Sukhoi's radar, considering that it can apparently already track and jam the F-22's APG-77, which is more generally more advanced than any Russian radar.

Also, if in a close dogfight, will the stealth of F-35 make it harder for enemy fighter to lock?


Probably, but the basic idea is to avoid dogfights since it's more of an even playing field, and why would you want that? I think a more important question is how big of a difference RCS changes the probability of kill for radar-guided missiles BVR, since it could mean that even if a fighter radar could get a lock, the smaller radars in its missile would still be ineffective.
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Unread post21 Aug 2013, 01:43

Prinz_Eugn wrote:
bayernfan wrote:Sorry if my questions are too rookie (I'm new to this forum):
I heard somewhere else that even F-35 has superior stealth capability comparing to Su-30/35, but when it open its radar trying to track the enemy fighter, F-35 will allow the enemy radar to discover it more easily hence lose the stealth advantage during A2A combat.


Partially true, shooting radio waves into the great beyond always raises the chances of detection, but there are a few big caveats as hb_pencil pointed out. The only thing I would add is that the F-35 has a great chance of being able to jam (or out-jam) the Sukhoi's radar, considering that it can apparently already track and jam the F-22's APG-77, which is more generally more advanced than any Russian radar.

Also, if in a close dogfight, will the stealth of F-35 make it harder for enemy fighter to lock?


Probably, but the basic idea is to avoid dogfights since it's more of an even playing field, and why would you want that? I think a more important question is how big of a difference RCS changes the probability of kill for radar-guided missiles BVR, since it could mean that even if a fighter radar could get a lock, the smaller radars in its missile would still be ineffective.
If the missile-radar-in-a-dogfight issue has been worked out, it doesn't seem to be in the public domain. The only way I can think of to give it a practical test is to do some test shots at stealthy drones.
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haavarla

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Unread post02 Sep 2013, 10:07

Some Nice vids Vids on the New Su-30SM is coming out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkgwa5HU ... ktg5u-GF3Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_pglUeaKzI

The Su-30SM is improved over the cousin MKI.
The VVS version has more thrust, New FBW(FCS) and newer systems in general.
New Datalink, communication MAW, EW system and instrumentations

Note that it is not in a clean configuration, but has Three missile(dummies) and several pylons mounted.
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Unread post03 Sep 2013, 05:38

Prinz_Eugn wrote:Probably, but the basic idea is to avoid dogfights since it's more of an even playing field, and why would you want that? I think a more important question is how big of a difference RCS changes the probability of kill for radar-guided missiles BVR, since it could mean that even if a fighter radar could get a lock, the smaller radars in its missile would still be ineffective.


True, but there are still plenty of ways where an A/A engagement can still end up in the more dangerous relm of WVR.

1. Russian pilots emphasize WVR combat over BVR, so they will do everything they can to get there where the playing feild is more equal. According to them they have the advantage in that arena against the F-35, time will tell

Bassed on what I read here and see on interviews, American pilots are more of 50/50 when it comes to WVR/BVR

2. The current Pk of an AMRAAM in combat is around 50%,
sure they have improved vastly since then but so has countermeasures and aircraft performance. Used in conjunction, they make the bandit very very hard to hit.

3. The F-35 dose'nt really have too many missiles to spare, in an A/A config, it might be carrying 4 Aim-120s and probably 2 Aim 9Xs on the wing tips plus a gun pod if your a B/C varriant.

Once that 1st missile misses, Pilots have often sped towards the merge as we saw on Over Iraq and Bossnia

We have atleast 4 F-35s dedicated to flight sciences testing, expanding the envelope and making sure that the F-35 will maintain an advantage over any type of fight.

Be it a BVR fight or a knife fight guns only
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Unread post03 Sep 2013, 09:45

zero-one wrote:
Prinz_Eugn wrote:True, but there are still plenty of ways where an A/A engagement can still end up in the more dangerous relm of WVR.


1. Yes they might emphasize WVR combat more than western airforces, simply because most aircraft in Russian inventory are rather poorly equipped for BVR combat and would be at severe disadvantage in it. Only rather small number of advanced Su-27 and MiG-29 derivatives have decent BVR equipment. In the future this will change and for example PAK-FA will probably have pretty good BVR equipment. Also it's interesting that Russian aircraft usually carry mostly BVR weapons (R-27 or R-77) and and only couple WVR weapons (R-73), just like most western aircraft.

Problem with getting to WVR combat with F-35 (or F-22) is detecting and tracking them in order to close to them. Another problem for Russian (or almost any other) aircraft is that even if they had maneuvering advantage, they will be at serious disadvantage at situational awareness. 1-on-1 in daylight conditions it might not be that serious, but that's rather rare wartime occurrence.

2. and 3. AMRAAM Pk might be 50%, but that also happens if you fire two weapons at each target even if Pk is actually 100%. Of course Pk is never 100%, but even 50% for single shot Pk would mean it's extremely deadly. With 6 weapons each F-35 could shoot down 3 enemy aircraft in each sortie. As F-35 would likely be used in groups rather than individuals, it'd mean that for example 4 F-35 flight could shoot down 12 enemy aircraft. Enemy would require enormous numerical advantage even to stay in fight for more than couple of days. The idea is not to kill entire enemy airforce in single sortie. Even if enemy countermeasures drop the Pk to 20 percent, a flight of 4 F-35s could shoot down 5 enemy aircraft. The enemy would run out of aircraft very quickly with such attrition. Of course Pk of enemy missiles should be even much lower with F-35 RF and IR stealth, extremely advanced countermeasures and DAS (much better than your average MAWS).

Most fighter jets don't carry much more operationally than what F-35 is carrying internally, especially if/when 6 internal missile capability is introduced. Of course large air superiority fighters like F-22 carry couple more missile, but on the other hand they are much larger aircraft and available in much lower numbers due to their high cost. Of course nothing stops using some F-35s in full VLO mode with all-internal weapons (mainly as sensors) and some in LO configuration with external missiles as shooters. Especially IR missiles with small fins/wings like AIM-9X or ASRAAM should not increase the RCS of F-35 too much even when carried externally. I agree that smaller internal carriage of missiles is somewhat of a drawback for F-35, but you can not get everything in a single jet.
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Unread post03 Sep 2013, 11:02

I agree with all your points,

mainly we both believe that future Air battles will comprise of both WVR and BVR tactics, as to how equally that cake will be sliced is a debate for another day entierly.

Just to add, to your points about Russian fighters slowly emphasizing BVR as well, the new models of the R-77 missile actually outrange the AMRAAM.

However I dont think this is very useful since firing a missile at long ranges greatly reduces its Pk against fighters. I believe the optimum kill range for BVR shots lay somewhere around the 20KM range,

The AMRAAM is such a stunning peice of engineering in that it can actually be used and is very effective even in WVR combat.
As I recall, a good number of the kills AMRAAMS acheived in combat were within vissual ranges
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