F-35 & F-16 (Block 50 +) - Comparison of frontal view.

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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SnakeHandler

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Unread post06 Feb 2011, 16:39

It's 30MM, that's all you need.
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svenphantom

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Unread post06 Feb 2011, 17:30

SnakeHandler wrote:It's 30MM, that's all you need.


I thought it was a 25mm Cannon...
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discofishing

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Unread post06 Feb 2011, 22:40

Yeah, I think it's 25mm. Is there that much difference between 20mm and 25mm rounds?
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That_Engine_Guy

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Unread post06 Feb 2011, 22:58

discofishing wrote:Is there that much difference between 20mm and 25mm rounds?


About 5mm. :lmao:

:cheers: Disco, you walked right into that one!

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Prinz_Eugn

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Unread post06 Feb 2011, 23:00

Volume of a cylinder = pi * radius^2 * height

Basically, a small increase in diameter means a big increase in volume, so you get a much heavier round. Depending on the kind of ammunition (High Explosive Incendiary/ Armor Piercing Incendiary) you could be looking at double the weight for the 25mm projectile.
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That_Engine_Guy

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Unread post06 Feb 2011, 23:17

Seriously....

F-16 20mm Gatling Gun System

The F-16 fighter is armed with the M61A1-based 20mm Gatling gun system produced by General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products. The weapon system consists of the gun and a linear linkless ammunition feed system, also produced by GDATP. The gun features a 6,000 shot-per-minute rate of fire and is compatible with all M50- and PGU-series ammunition.

Specifications
M61A1, Six-Barrel, 20mm, Externally Powered Gatling Gun

Weight (Total): 832 Pounds (377 kg)
Gun: 248 Pounds (112.5 kg)
Feed System: 258 Pounds (117 kg)
Ammunition: (Full) 325 Pounds (147 kg)

Rate of Fire: 6,000 Shots Per Minute
Ammunition Capacity: 511 Rounds
Ammunition Type: M50- & PGU-Series Ammunition
Muzzle Velocity: 3,380 feet per second
Feed System: Rotary, Linkless, Closed Loop
Drive System: Hydraulic

F-35 Lightning II 25mm Gatling Gun System

General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products has been awarded a system development and demonstration contract to design, produce, and integrate the F-35 Lightning II Stealth Fighter's gun system. GDATP is developing an internal and external gun system (GAU-22/A) based on a derivative of the GAU-12/U 25mm Gatling gun. An internally mounted gun system will arm the F-35A Conventional Takeoff and Landing aircraft variant and an externally mounted gun system will arm the F-35B Short Takeoff and Vertical Landing and F-35C Carrier-Based aircraft variants.

Specifications
GAU-22/A, Four-barrel, 25mm, externally powered Gatling gun

Weight
Internal System: 420 pounds (191 kg)
External System: 724 pounds (329 kg)

Rate of Fire: Up to 3,300 shots per minute
Dispersion: 5 milliradians diameter, 80 percent circle

Muzzle Velocity
(TP, HEI ammunition): 3,560 feet (1,085m) per second
(API ammunition): 3,400 feet (1,036m) per second

Feed System: Conventional linear linkless (CTOL), helical linear linkless (STOVL, CV)
Drive System: Hydraulic

USAF wrote:he US Government intends to apply for approval of a Foreign Comparative Testing (FCT) project (www.acq.osd.mil/sts/fct) to evaluate proposed medium caliber ammunition. The 685th Armament Systems Squadron requests assistance in identifying potential 25mm x137 ammunition for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter gun system in all combat environments.

The F-35 is a joint USAF/USN/USMC and US-Partner developmental aircraft program in SDD with a projected USAF Initial Operational Capability of 2013. Over the next 20+ years, the F-35 will replace the USAF F-16 and A-10 and become the primary frontline fighter aircraft for the USAF. The USAF variant F-35/A is armed with the GAU-22A which is a 25mm 4-barrel gun system and ammunition handling system, and will begin “on aircraft gun firing” in 2011. This gun system is currently in development by Lockheed Martin.

None of the existing 25mm combat ammunition within the DoD inventory (PGU-20/25/32) can achieve the USAF required lethality. Recent training and combat experiences validate the importance of supporting gun systems and their ammunition for effective support for ground forces. Additionally, the F-35/A gun system requirements include an air-to-air lethality capability. Due to the limited available ammunition storage capacity on the F-35, ammunition with a multi-role “dual-purpose” projectile design must be employed to meet lethality requirements.


Or so General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products says...

Keep 'em flyin' :thumb:
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Unread post07 Feb 2011, 05:21

Here is another cobbled together picture, just for good measure. This time, both aircraft are photos, from relatively the same angle. However, I could not find a good photo to use of an F-35A, so I substituted an F-35B. Just for the sake of roughly comparing the frontal profile, this is pretty close. Again, the scale is very approximate.
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F-16 vs F-35B (final).jpg
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That_Engine_Guy

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Unread post07 Feb 2011, 06:52

At least the inlet is further from the ramp!

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geogen

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Unread post07 Feb 2011, 07:34

Welcome Majorzaid -

I guess I'm unsure exactly w/ the precise intent of your thread though. (no disrespect). But you want to compare the frontal 'view'? Ok... and??

As for the range comparison; yes, as battleship noted: an F-16 with CFT and 3 EFT would have far superior range. And if your IOC 2017 sortie was requiring (or giving you) a GBU-10/24, then that would of course have to go under the F-35's wing too. Furthermore, as far as A2G load-outs go... its likely that a next gen Litening SE (improved G4) pod would be the superior kit (especially when operated by a dedicated back-seater, cough) than the 3rd gen EOTS. So imho, depending on the mission, something worth dragging.

Hmmm, now what I'd like to see cobbled together is a comparative frontal of view X-47B and F-35!! Anyone able to do that in their free time? Exec?? :thanks: :thumb:
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Unread post07 Feb 2011, 08:10

There is a reason that we developed LJDAMs.. for internal carriage in the F-35. Problem solved and no need to put them under the wing.
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Unread post07 Feb 2011, 10:30

Now that I think about it, the F-35 is eventually going to replace the AV-8B and the A-10, both of which use a higher caliber round than the standard 20mm used on all the other aircraft. The 25mm round probably fills the gap between the 20mm and the 30mm. Hopefully the rate of fire isn't too ridiculous, 180 rounds goes quick.
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Unread post07 Feb 2011, 17:04

geogen wrote:

As for the range comparison; yes, as battleship noted: an F-16 with CFT and 3 EFT would have far superior range.


CFTs and 3 EFTs would likely result in a superior range, but.....those EFTs would have to be dropped at the first sign of fighters or SAMs(and the huge RCS, would make that more likely). It'd only be an advantage in permissive airspace, and certainly wouldn't give the F-16 2x the range of the F-35.


And if your IOC 2017 sortie was requiring (or giving you) a GBU-10/24, then that would of course have to go under the F-35's wing too.

That's not how it works. There's no mission where the GBU-10/24 would be the only suitable munition.

Furthermore, as far as A2G load-outs go... its likely that a next gen Litening SE (improved G4) pod would be the superior kit (especially when operated by a dedicated back-seater, cough) than the 3rd gen EOTS. So imho, depending on the mission, something worth dragging.


Lots of hypotheticals here, and even if there is an advantage of some sort, would an F-16 be able to get close enough to a well defended target, to take advantage? Unless the range on the Litening SE allowed the F-16 to engage from outside the WEZ of air defenses, then it's a moot point.
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Unread post07 Feb 2011, 22:05

F-16 with CFTs, 3 EFTs, and lots of ordinance hanging off it would be seen on radar before it even took off. Better range and targeting pod are useless if you are blown out of the air the second you get into enemy airspace. The F-35's EOTS is based off of Sniper technology anyways right? Who is to say that the Lightning couldn't be upgraded, on the flight line, to 4th gen standards?
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Unread post07 Feb 2011, 22:31

wrightwing wrote:CFTs and 3 EFTs would likely result in a superior range, but.....those EFTs would have to be dropped at the first sign of fighters or SAMs(and the huge RCS, would make that more likely). It'd only be an advantage in permissive airspace, and certainly wouldn't give the F-16 2x the range of the F-35.


Everyone seems to always bring up drag when it weighs against the F-16, yet forget about it completely in times like this. An F-16 goes into battle with a full weapons load and external tanks, meaning it expends more fuel going to the target than returning from the target. If planned accordingly, the F-16 would drop its tanks just before entering hostile airspace (almost empty) and then drop its bombs, leaving you with a clean airframe and maybe ~80 % of its internal fuel + CFT's to get home.

If F-16's configured for ground attack are forced into combat long before reaching the target, then they would also have to jettison their air to ground ordinance for agility, aborting the primary mission altogether. This is where the F-22 would really work well with the F-16. Raptors proceed ahead of the Falcons, taking out enemy fighters and relaying data back for missile tracking. The F-16's would likely carry four AIM-120's each, doubling that of a standard F-35 weapon load. By itself the falcon may not be a spectacular fighter, but using them in conjunction with the F-22 offers the greatest number of fighters sharing many of the Raptor's benefits as a force multiplier.

Multiple F-35's working together or in conjunction with the F-22 doesn't yield the same force-multiplier benefits as you would get from using older fighters. And they all cost roughly the same for mostly redundant benefits.

wrightwing wrote:That's not how it works. There's no mission where the GBU-10/24 would be the only suitable munition.


And what would you suggest as a substitute? A cruise missile?

The point is that you want a flexible armament for a fighter. The F-22 is limited only to 1,000 Ib munitions, but that's really all you need for most targets. So what's the drawback?

The drawback is that you might want a specific kind of bunker busters for a target and find that while an F-22 must mount it externally, the F-35 can carry it without compromising its low RCS. A more flexible armament for a fighter is always better than to always have to cherry pick from a limited range of munitions which normally aren't favored for the job.

wrightwing wrote:Lots of hypotheticals here, and even if there is an advantage of some sort, would an F-16 be able to get close enough to a well defended target, to take advantage? Unless the range on the Litening SE allowed the F-16 to engage from outside the WEZ of air defenses, then it's a moot point.


And what of those targets which aren't well-defended? I don't think a F-35's stealth would have much impact against a band of insurgents hiding in a cave. Yet the F-35 is more expensive than an F-16. An A-10 is even more cost-effective and capable than an F-16 for such jobs.

An F-35 probably would make a good WWIII fighter against a first-world air force, but all those hi-tech goodies make it an expensive workhorse in comparison to an F-16 or A-10. It might be good to complement older fighters with F-35's, but certainly I wouldn't see them as good replacements... at least not from what I've seen of the JSF program so far.
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Unread post07 Feb 2011, 23:07

battleshipagincourt wrote:And what would you suggest as a substitute? A cruise missile?

The point is that you want a flexible armament for a fighter. The F-22 is limited only to 1,000 Ib munitions, but that's really all you need for most targets. So what's the drawback?

The drawback is that you might want a specific kind of bunker busters for a target and find that while an F-22 must mount it externally, the F-35 can carry it without compromising its low RCS. A more flexible armament for a fighter is always better than to always have to cherry pick from a limited range of munitions which normally aren't favored for the job.


You seemed to forget about the LJDAM. It gives the std 2000 lb (or smaller) JDAM a laser seeker and fits into the bay of the F-35A/C.

As far as flexibility goes, nothing beats the F-35 with it's UAI (Universal Armament Interface) which will allow new munitions to be used on F-35s WITHOUT having to do a block upgrade.
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