F-35A versus Saab Gripen NG

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post22 Jan 2021, 22:10

mixelflick wrote:Perhaps then we'll get the real 411 on how good it is, how cheap it is to fly (or not), etc...



ricrunes is right, You'll never learn a damn thing. No one has been able to provide me a single piece of official paperwork showing the line by line costing in the Brazil contract that was signed years ago. You think Brazil has some kind of DOT&E thats going to make sure every I is dotted and T bribed? There just isn't a whole lot of defense reporting. we also know Gripen is going to stretch their manufacturing time which will inevitably add cost. the high cost of the Brazilian Gripens will be handwaived. And Gripen fans love to handwaive. Switzerland was one of the most brutal fanboy divorces I've ever witnessed on the internet. one day the Swiss were brilliant were picking Gripen. Then they were the sumbest country ever, and when the Swiss told Saab not even to bother coming back I think there was an absolute meltdown


South Africa has Gripens and only 50 percent of them are in operation, of the 50 percent that do fly hours have been vastly reduced. They also put the cost per hour at over $10,000 per hour. They were literally mothballing Gripens before they even had their full delivery completed.

The standard response to all this from team gripen is that its country X's problem. funny how nobody outside Sweden can keep more than 15 of these things flying.

I promise you if problems ever do come out from Brazil or anywhere else, it will be immediately blamed on the non Swedish foreign operator, despite the fact that its fans make it sound like a half trained monkey with a nearly empty wallet can operate an air force of 100 of them. South Africa is disfuntional, theres no doubt about that. But the Gripen is supposed to be able to surmount even the most ill trained and dysfunctional with just a handful of "conscripts" Which brings up the point that myself and others have made, that there is no such animal as the "cheap gripen" or most serious fighters for that matter. some costs are simply set. hangars cost what hangars cost. fighter pilots cost around 5 million to train, flat rate. Theres just certain things that are fixed costs. Slovakia found the costs of Gripen over 10 years to be the same as an F-16 in their eval. theres just not that much room. costs can "move" as well. one aspect is made cheaper, that makes another more expensive.

Only Sweden has ever really gotten the Gripen to work in the numbers people talk about. They've never leased or exported more than even 70 of the original combined. a dozen here, a dozen there. leased, rarely bought.
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Unread post22 Jan 2021, 22:28

go4long wrote:
energo wrote:Recall:


Has anyone ever suggested that maybe Saab themselves are delusional? That chart would seem to indicate that they haven't got a clue.


Delusional? maybe

Its just them having to be consistent with their lie. if you look at that chart it looks like they placed F-16 about where it would be if it cost $7,000 and the Gripen closer than halfway to it as if it cost $4700.


It was nice of them to mark up the cost of different F-16 variants while not marking up the cost of the Gripen NG though.

its like Glock. Their slogan is "Perfection" but they just introduced the 5th generation glock a few years back. The Glock E if you will. haha.

its so perfect we are on our 5th iteration, much the same hype with Gripen. Its so "easily upgradable" and "future proof" that if you want more range we have to do a massive redesign of the entire thing form nose to tail that will take 15 years. The Gripen is perfect. and in no way shape or form should anyone take the fact that it was built with inadequate range from the start as some kind of a knock against it, but by pure coincidence they're introducing a variant that has much improved range to make up for the problem everyone knows about, but will never really acknowledge.

Image


They knew that the word was out on the original gripen and that the market demanded more than what Gripen could offer. Thats why NG exists.

Grouping themselves in with the capabilities of a Typhoon/Rafale? I think the swiss document pretty much destroys any chance of that being reasonably possible. The best I have ever seen on an evaluation of an E/NG is that it's MAYBE as capable as a legacy hornet.


Well I've complained about this before. people compare Gripen to world class 5th generation fighters, and we aren't even sure if its the best fighter in Europe, let alone the world. F-16s seem to eat its lunch pretty routinely. One consistent complaint, and much repeated fact has been that the more powerful airplanes beat it. F-16 and Typhoons have power to spare so can fly and win more easily against it, whereas a Gripen pilot has to be more careful with his energy and can't make mistakes. Thats not going to be fixed with Gripen E BTW. whatever power got added from F414 has already been gobbled up.


They fanboys can't decide if the Gripen is "almost as good airplane X, but costs much less" IE a respectable Bronze medal,

or

if its an amazing dominating uber fighter that wins red flags singlehandedly and defeats F-22s with one canard tied behind its back before collecting the platinum medal.

but hey they are going to put an LED light on refueling probe so they can refuel at night. Truly 21st century
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Unread post23 Jan 2021, 00:16

"...but hey they are going to put an LED light on refueling probe so they can refuel at night. Truly 21st century."

That's gotta be THE MOST amazing update of any aircraft of any era - hands down - don't wait up - it may be some time.
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Unread post23 Jan 2021, 01:56

spazsinbad wrote:
"...but hey they are going to put an LED light on refueling probe so they can refuel at night. Truly 21st century."

That's gotta be THE MOST amazing update of any aircraft of any era - hands down - don't wait up - it may be some time.


LOL :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Being stealth and having true sensor fusion or resuming being a 5th gen fighter aircraft?? Bah, that's LM marketing!

The true way to go is having LED lights on refueling probes - That's what really makes a 6th gen fighter aircraft!

:mrgreen:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post23 Jan 2021, 02:28

Hungarian Gripens STEP UP [3 page PDF of article attached]
Jan 2016 Istvan Toperczer

"Istvan Toperczer from Siauliai Air Base in Lithuania on the Hungarian Air Force JAS39 Gripens' participation in the ongoing Baltic Air Policing mission....

...Being a NATO member, Hungary is obligated to help defend the wider interests of the organisation. Besides local air defence of its home nation, the HuAF protects Slovenian airspace, and carries out air policing in the Baltics.

The Hungarian quick reaction alert (QRA) force deployed to Siauliai with four Gripens which will be carrying out air policing duties from here until December 2015. There are more than 80 deployed personnel, many of whom have come from Kecskemét Air Base....

...Regardless of whether it is an Alpha or Tango scramble, everything takes place to a strict set of rules. The pilots, already kitted out with helmets and kneepads, are driven to their jets in a minivan; alerted technicians open the hangar doors and wait for the aircrew to arrive. After a rapid strap-in, the engines spool up, pilots do their last checks and technicians perform a final walk around of the aircraft checking the live weapons. The Gripens fly with two AIM-9 Sidewinders, two AIM-120 AMRAAMs, loaded guns and two drops tanks that extend the time of a CAP.

According to NATO rules, the basic formation for QRA is a two-ship. The leader is responsible for identifying the violating aircraft, while the wingman covers the leader’s rear.

Occasionally pilots have had to use an emergency frequency to contact the intruder or, fly in close formation and use hand signals.

After returning to base, HuAF technicians quickly turn around the Gripens and refuel the jets to get them back on QRA status...."

Source: AIRFORCES Monthly Magazine January 2016 Issue 334
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Unread post23 Jan 2021, 13:33

spazsinbad wrote:
"...but hey they are going to put an LED light on refueling probe so they can refuel at night. Truly 21st century."

That's gotta be THE MOST amazing update of any aircraft of any era - hands down - don't wait up - it may be some time.


I just remember one more thing about the above:

We have the following aircraft and concepts:

- Gripen
- Gripen NG/E/F
- Sea Gripen

So I guess that if Saab puts lots of LED lights with different colors on the refueling probe then we would get the:
- Christmas Gripen

right? :mrgreen:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post23 Jan 2021, 14:59

Flying with two dated sidewinders and AIM-120C's plus Gripens sensors is one thing. Flying with two AIM-9x or ASRAAM plus 2 Meteor's and the Gripen's sensor suite is quite another.

In neither case though do I think it can stay aloft very long, even with drop tanks. Depends on how much engine they use of course. I dunno. I wouldn't want to be above the North Sea in a Gripen, even taking off fully fueled with 2 EFT's. And one, underpowered engine.

Canada listening?
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Unread post25 Jan 2021, 20:44

mixelflick wrote:Flying with two dated sidewinders and AIM-120C's plus Gripens sensors is one thing. Flying with two AIM-9x or ASRAAM plus 2 Meteor's and the Gripen's sensor suite is quite another.

In neither case though do I think it can stay aloft very long, even with drop tanks. Depends on how much engine they use of course. I dunno. I wouldn't want to be above the North Sea in a Gripen, even taking off fully fueled with 2 EFT's. And one, underpowered engine.

Canada listening?


Canadians with common sense? yes. BF4C? not so much. They still insist that the Gripen has longer range than the F-35.
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Unread post25 Jan 2021, 22:08

go4long wrote:
Canadians with common sense? yes. BF4C? not so much. They still insist that the Gripen has longer range than the F-35.


Gripen original "Combat range" 800 KM

E adds "40 percent more fuel"

Gripen E/F "combat range" 1500KM (88 percent increase in range)



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Unread post26 Jan 2021, 04:52

XanderCrews wrote:
Gripen original "Combat range" 800 KM

E adds "40 percent more fuel"

Gripen E/F "combat range" 1500KM (88 percent increase in range)



Image


You mean this fun little graphic here... btw pulled from BF4C lmao
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Unread post26 Jan 2021, 05:15

charlielima223 wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
Gripen original "Combat range" 800 KM

E adds "40 percent more fuel"

Gripen E/F "combat range" 1500KM (88 percent increase in range)



Image


You mean this fun little graphic here... btw pulled from BF4C lmao
Image



I've gone off on that one before. Its exhibit A of the "all these numbers are all made up"

1300?

so "only" a 63 percent increase with 40 percent more fuel...
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Unread post26 Jan 2021, 06:04

GRIPEN NEST [7 page PDF of article attached]
Oct 2016 Martin Scharenborg & Ramon Wenink

"Martin Scharenborg and Ramon Wenink/Global Aviation Review Press visited Såtenäs Air Base, the cradle of Gripen flying and home of the Swedish Hercules fleet....

...“We’re very happy with the Gripen. In comparison to the Viggen it is very easy to maintain and built to be managed by just one or two technicians."... [NOT MAINTAINERS then?]

...Challenging Times
With Russian aircraft flying close to Sweden’s border, the Air Force is, despite many cutbacks, optimising its air defence capability. For F7 this means preparing for the new JAS 39E/F Gripen from 2019 and the use of highway landing strips. During the Cold War this scenario was regularly practised on Highway 44, southeast of the air base, but fell into abeyance in the early 2000s. Now the Gripen squadrons at Såtenäs are training for road flying again.

Operations are from parking positions just outside the base, where special field hangars are erected for aircraft servicing. The jets taxi via tracks to the main runway to simulate highway operations. [so no flying from roads huh?]

Maj Svensson explained: “Compared with the Viggen it’s very easy to operate the Gripen from short runways. It has carbon fibre brakes and only needs 800m to stop.” Sweden will eventually begin regular operations from highway strips again, and as a foretaste Gripens from F21 at Luleå-Kallax participated in Exercise Baana 2015 in September 2015. Held in Finland, it included operations from Highway 924, near the city of Hosio, south of Rovaniemi Air Base."

Source: AirForces Monthly Magazine October 2016 Number 343
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Unread post26 Jan 2021, 06:20

go4long wrote:They still insist that the Gripen has longer range than the F-35.


And yet for decades they put so much effort into trying to hide Gripen's internal fuel capacity. Canada should have a look at South Korea's FA-50 Bk20 trainer as those have similar performance, payload, weapons and capabilities as a Swedish lead-in fighter trainer.
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Unread post26 Jan 2021, 07:37

ricnunes wrote:So I guess that if Saab puts lots of LED lights with different colors on the refueling probe then we would get the:
- Christmas Gripen

right? :mrgreen:


That would definitely also need to have red nosecone and some jingle bells... :mrgreen:
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Unread post26 Jan 2021, 08:48

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