F-35A versus Saab Gripen NG

[optimist]

Why do I think that the 15 will be mostly kits, just assembled in Brazil? Is there any info of anything substantial that will be produced in Brazil? Google is letting me down.
The difference between make and assemble from parts provided?
"Saab Aeronáutica Montagens, a new manufacturing plant located near Sao Paulo, has begun producing Gripen E/F aerostructures, including the tail cone and front fuselage for the single-seat Gripen E version of the jet. It will eventually also make the brakes, rear fuselage, wing box and front fuselage for the two-seater “F” model, Saab stated."
https://www.defensenews.com/global/the- ... %20Tuesday.

[XanderCrews]

Why do I think that the 15 will be mostly kits, just assembled in Brazil? Is there any info of anything substantial that will be produced in Brazil? Google is letting me down.
The difference between make and assemble from parts provided?
"Saab Aeronáutica Montagens, a new manufacturing plant located near Sao Paulo, has begun producing Gripen E/F aerostructures, including the tail cone and front fuselage for the single-seat Gripen E version of the jet. It will eventually also make the brakes, rear fuselage, wing box and front fuselage for the two-seater “F” model, Saab stated."
https://www.defensenews.com/global/the- ... %20Tuesday.

yuuup! and that came up earlier in the thread too. the difference between "MADE in" and "ASSEMBLED in" brazil. People whohave been in this "game" for a while know the very critical difference.

[optimist]

Australia 'made' their fa-18a many years ago. Unfortunately we can't even refabricate a bracket for it. It has to be OEM from the US

[ricnunes]

yuuup! and that came up earlier in the thread too. the difference between "MADE in" and "ASSEMBLED in" brazil. People whohave been in this "game" for a while know the very critical difference.

I believe that I missed that discussion (the diference between "Made in" and "Assembled in").

However my perception is that is most cases worldwide (outside the USA, Russia, France and partially China) there's hardly any diference between "Made in" and "Assembled in" since most aircraft parts are made outside the company and the country where most of these aircraft including both military and civilian are finally assembled (or for those who prefer, "made in").

Regarding Brazil and Gripen case, if I had to caracterize then I would say that they will "assemble" and not "make/build" their Gripen fighter aircraft, this even if they will build a small percentage of the aircraft parts.
Resuming, the percentage build in Brazil is IMO too/very small compared to the overall aircraft parts which IMO means "Assembled in" and not "Made in".

I don't know if my perception is accurate enough or not but here are my 2 cents...

[ricnunes]

Why do I think that the 15 will be mostly kits, just assembled in Brazil? Is there any info of anything substantial that will be produced in Brazil? Google is letting me down.
The difference between make and assemble from parts provided?
"Saab Aeronáutica Montagens, a new manufacturing plant located near Sao Paulo, has begun producing Gripen E/F aerostructures, including the tail cone and front fuselage for the single-seat Gripen E version of the jet. It will eventually also make the brakes, rear fuselage, wing box and front fuselage for the two-seater “F” model, Saab stated."
https://www.defensenews.com/global/the- ... %20Tuesday.

So and by looking at the following picture that I found over the web (which shows the Gripen parts that Brazil plans/expects to manufacture):

whose source is this:
https://revistapesquisa.fapesp.br/en/th ... ghter-jet/

And by reading the article shared by optimist, it seems that compared to what was planned Brazil will only manufacture (fuselage) parts 1- and 7- for the Gripen E while it should manufacture parts 1-, 5-, 6-, 7- and 8- for the Gripen F
So the closest thing to a Gripen manufactured in Brazil will be the Gripen F which I believe is something that here we already knew about and which will be the vast minority of all manufactured Gripen E/F (I can only imagine how much will it cost each Gripen F, knowing beforehand that each Gripen E is already expensive) and even with all that, Brazil should manufacture less than 50% of all Gripen F components.

[XanderCrews]

its nearly all structural parts on an airplane that claims it will survive entirely by avionics/electronics on a 21st century battlefield.

Brazil isn't making anything thats ground breaking or that matters, its none of the cutting edge tech like Saab and internet fans made it sound like.

the high tech 21st century speed brakes. Shornet, F-35, and F-22 don't even have speed brakes...

truly groundbreaking stuff. Gotta wonder how Brazil will parlay its speed brake manufacturing experience into tomorrows highly advanced air machine.

[ricnunes]

Brazil isn't making anything thats ground breaking or that matters, its none of the cutting edge tech like Saab and internet fans made it sound like.

the high tech 21st century speed brakes. Shornet, F-35, and F-22 don't even have speed brakes...

truly groundbreaking stuff. Gotta wonder how Brazil will parlay its speed brake manufacturing experience into tomorrows highly advanced air machine.

Exactly!

Then I eager you to imagine what's being told to the Brazilians by the Brazilian authorities, media and Embraer about how amazing this "tech transfer" and "Gripen being made in Brazil" is and how Brazil will now be able to develop their own fighter aircraft from scratch, etc... It's gold comedy!

Just to give you an idea, I have this good friend of mine which is Brazilian and as such knows that I'm a military aviation enthusiast and due to this he asked my opinion about the Brazilian Gripen deal. When I explained to him the real deal behind the Brazil/Gripen deal (such as pointing him that more than 30% of the aircraft is British, the engine is American, the radar is Italian, etc, etc...) his reaction kinda reminded me a bit when someone takes a candy from a kid

[XanderCrews]

Brazil isn't making anything thats ground breaking or that matters, its none of the cutting edge tech like Saab and internet fans made it sound like.

the high tech 21st century speed brakes. Shornet, F-35, and F-22 don't even have speed brakes...

truly groundbreaking stuff. Gotta wonder how Brazil will parlay its speed brake manufacturing experience into tomorrows highly advanced air machine.

Exactly!

Then I eager you to imagine what's being told to the Brazilians by the Brazilian authorities, media and Embraer about how amazing this "tech transfer" and "Gripen being made in Brazil" is and how Brazil will now be able to develop their own fighter aircraft from scratch, etc... It's gold comedy!

Just to give you an idea, I have this good friend of mine which is Brazilian and as such knows that I'm a military aviation enthusiast and due to this he asked my opinion about the Brazilian Gripen deal. When I explained to him the real deal behind the Brazil/Gripen deal (such as pointing him that more than 30% of the aircraft is British, the engine is American, the radar is Italian, etc, etc...) his reaction kinda reminded me a bit when someone takes a candy from a kid

[XanderCrews]

Ok everyone, I wanted to post the much talked about and debated CPFH. I'm going to post sources and the year they were made. I know that some of these have been posted throughout the thread I wanted to condense them in one post. I ask and encourage anyone with any other data to please contribute it. Preferably with a link and other such references. These are in no particular order, its a list of what I have encountered the last decade+.

The world famous Janes study:



$4700, 2012

$6,300-7,800, 2017

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/south-a ... -poachers/

Operational costs estimates have also witnessed significant escalation. In 2010, company representatives stated the Gripen NG’s per flying hour cost would be around US $5,000. Yet Saab has now increased this to US$10,000, and the Swiss military has estimated their costs at approximately US$21,000. , 2013

https://skiesmag.com/news/18883-fighter ... ipen-html/

The life-cycle costs of the Gripen compare very favorably with other fighters, according to Kemp. “At $3,500 to $4,000 per hour, our operating cost is about half that of an F-16,” he added. The Eurofighter, he insisted, costs “much more” to operate. , 2006

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... g-exercise

The draft also includes the operating costs: CHF 102 million per year (CHF 6 million included for the operation of real estate). The operating costs per hour are not explicitly mentioned in the template. Taking into account the listed annual costs for personnel (24 million), maintenance (51 million) and fuel (21 million), these are significantly more than Saab presented to journalists in previous presentations. Switzerland bases the calculation of the operating costs per hour on a flight operating time of 180 hours per year. With 22 gripen this results in costs of 24'242 francs per flight hour. On the occasion of a presentation in Sweden, Saab stated a price of less than CHF 10,000. There is still a need for explanation here. = $26,000, 2012

https://www.bernerzeitung.ch/schweiz/st ... y/18471087

sadly this one is behind a paywall.

Total financial expenses in accordance with the submitted draft contract after conversion to
ensure the 10-year operation of aircraft F-16 Block 70/72 is about the same as the total cost of providing
10 years of operation of aircraft JAS-39C/D.

Not CPFH, per se. Slovakia report:

https://rokovania.gov.sk/RPO/Material/1702/1



Fun fact, when the infamous janes study was published in 2012 that claimed the F-16 was $7,000 the USAF said in official documents the F-16 was $22,000 the next year... I highly doubt any of the aircraft rates on that chart are accurate at all. (but most already know this now)

[hornetfinn]

That Janes study is like comparing apples to pears and bananas. For Gripen they took into account only fuel costs and lubricants and some other very minor work to fly just one hour. Then for F-35 (and Super Hornet) they took whole lifetime operating costs divided by total number of flight hours. For Rafale and Eurofighter they got something in between. That way you could say that Ferrari costs a lot less to drive than Toyota Corolla. Just compare cost of fuel to drive one gentle hour in Ferrari and whole lifetime costs to drive Toyota Corolla (including all the services, tires, taxes, fixes, washing, loan costs, insurance).

Anyway, there seems to be enough evidence that F-35 and Saab Gripen E are not that far apart in acquisition or operating costs. I think Gripen is slightly (less than 25%) cheaper, but it's also so much less capable aircraft that it doesn't mean almost anything. A lot depends on what kind of missions and threat environment they are meant to be used. A simple air policing missions for a small nation is very different than going against modern IADS and 4th+ gen or even 5th gen fighters far away from home. For the latter Gripen would need a lot of additional stuff (targeting pods, EFTs, support jamming equipment, decoy missiles, long range cruise missiles) which F-35 doesn't really need or has far less need. There I think F-35 might well be cheaper and immensely more capable. For air policing I can see Gripen being cheaper and probably good enough (but so would be F-16 or even FA-50 or M-346FA).

[optimist]

If it's going to compete in the air policing, drug interdiction, light attack jet aircraft market for small nations. It has some competition. It didn't make the top 8 jets and 2 props on this 'Top Ten' list.
https://www.airforce-technology.com/fea ... -aircraft/

[XanderCrews]

If it's going to compete in the air policing, drug interdiction, light attack jet aircraft market for small nations. It has some competition. It didn't make the top 8 jets and 2 props on this 'Top Ten' list.
https://www.airforce-technology.com/fea ... -aircraft/

its kind of like how South Africa just uses Hawks now. the Gripen is a bit of a "bastard" its "too light for big boys and too heavy for the little guys." so I'm not surprised.

that price tag is enormous for someone who can instead go for a weaponized trainer.

[ricnunes]

Or go for used F-16s if someone (some country) wants something "big enough" but for a fraction of the Gripen's cost.

[kimjongnumbaun]

If it's going to compete in the air policing, drug interdiction, light attack jet aircraft market for small nations. It has some competition. It didn't make the top 8 jets and 2 props on this 'Top Ten' list.
https://www.airforce-technology.com/fea ... -aircraft/

That awkward moment when the Tejas offers similar performance to the Gripen C and is much further along development than the Gripen E.

[XanderCrews]

Remains to be seen but Canada at least prefers used F-18s over New Gripen Es and we've seen a bevy of teen fighters getting resold all around.

Saab dun goofed.