F-35A versus Saab Gripen NG

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post09 Jan 2021, 07:50

optimist wrote:If it's going to compete in the air policing, drug interdiction, light attack jet aircraft market for small nations. It has some competition. It didn't make the top 8 jets and 2 props on this 'Top Ten' list.
https://www.airforce-technology.com/fea ... -aircraft/


That awkward moment when the Tejas offers similar performance to the Gripen C and is much further along development than the Gripen E.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post11 Jan 2021, 23:34

Remains to be seen but Canada at least prefers used F-18s over New Gripen Es and we've seen a bevy of teen fighters getting resold all around.

Saab dun goofed.
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Unread post12 Jan 2021, 03:12

XanderCrews wrote:Remains to be seen but Canada at least prefers used F-18s over New Gripen Es and we've seen a bevy of teen fighters getting resold all around.

Saab dun goofed.


Don't see Canada buying anything but American...........
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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post12 Jan 2021, 03:43

The awkward when the government will need to explain why they've put off the fighter replacement for years and conducted a fighter competition, only to arrive at the same conclusion that all the previous studies that said the F-35 is the best choice. So why did they waste all this time and money?
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optimist

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Unread post12 Jan 2021, 06:01

Just politics. Defence procurement isn't a bipartisan agreement in Canada. It should be done with a committee and defense. They were in opposition and criticised procurement. Then they found themselves in power. A bit of a meeting. We'll run a quick competition, to save face for PR and get the F-35. It kind of goes downhill after that.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post12 Jan 2021, 16:19

kimjongnumbaun wrote:The awkward when the government will need to explain why they've put off the fighter replacement for years and conducted a fighter competition, only to arrive at the same conclusion that all the previous studies that said the F-35 is the best choice. So why did they waste all this time and money?



when they hit the "reset" button back in 2012 I told a Canadian pal "you guys are about to spend a lot of money to come to the same conclusion"

I was right, but I was wrong in that I had no idea just how much money it would be. WOW

Theyve spent billions, in order to save some millions.

500 million CF-18 upgrade

another 500 million for the Aussie hornets...

the cost of the competition... the KPMG audit was 2 million alone I think.

The budget bumped up to 18 billion now

Remember that the original plan was 9 billion dollar budget for 65 F-35s. theyve blown over 12 percent of the original budget just playing dumb games. Even if the F-35 was 10 percent over budget they would have saved.

The worst part that won't show on any spreadsheets is the fact that they've lost so many potential F-35 contracts because their government is being dumb. Smart countries are combining industry and government and grabbing as many contracts as they possibly can get working together.

Canada is being so ridiculous the US has had to send them memos reminding them how the contract they signed actually works.
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Unread post16 Jan 2021, 08:45

SMART FIGHTER [Eight page PDF of article attached below]
Mar 2021 TOM CHIVERS

"In an era when software upgrades are critical, the Gripen strives to be the iPhone [are we shot down yet?] of aircraft...."

Source: AIR & SPACE Smithsonian Magazine March 2021
Attachments
GRIPEN smart Air & Space Smithsonian Mar 2021 pp8.pdf
(1.67 MiB) Downloaded 413 times
GripenEdemoCockpit.jpg
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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element1loop

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Unread post16 Jan 2021, 10:23

#34: Competent and experienced people must never be allowed to make final decisions.

#35: Final decisions should be delayed at all costs.

#36: If a final decision has been made it must be vigorously criticized and reconsidered at least seven times, to cast sufficient doubt on the original decision, and the competence of the decision-makers.

#37: Where new information does not exist, as a fair grounds for formal reconsideration, it must be immediately fabricated in copious and repetitious abundance.

#38: If these fabrications are challenged you must gesticulate wildly and yell, "Squirrel! ... Squirrel!", etc.

#39: Bite your finger tip off and pretend a vicious Squirrel has attacked you. Did you see it? It was right there! Etc.

#40: When sufficient sympathy has been garnered, float the proposition that Gripen-E would be an even better frontline combat capability.

#41: If anyone breaks into a fit of raucous laughter at this, look at your finger with a rather pained expression, then glance around at a low level.

#42: When eyes finally return to you smile bravely while discussing the advantages of Gripen-E's advanced panoramic display and soft ergonomic seating.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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zhangmdev

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Unread post16 Jan 2021, 11:33

The Gripen WAD made by AEL Sistemas has traditional buttons, lots of them.

https://www.defesaaereanaval.com.br/nav ... -do-gripen
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spazsinbad

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Unread post16 Jan 2021, 11:54

Attachments
GripenWideTouchButtonScreen.jpg
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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XanderCrews

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Unread post16 Jan 2021, 15:40

From Spaz's article: (thank you Spaz!!)

"The Gripen has its weaknesses. Because of its
small size, it pays a higher cost—in range and speed—
than one of its larger rivals for a similar amount of
ordnance hung from its hardpoints. For all that the
fighters are designed to catch and intercept Tupolev
Bears over the Baltic Sea, they can’t actually keep
up with them for very long. The Bear can just keep
on flying, for hours and hours, and a Gripen will
quickly run out of fuel. One engine saves on cost,
but means less redundancy and less spare power
for other systems, such as radar."


General Lennart Pettersson in 2004: “Although
some aircraft flown in these exercises may have
had a slightly better thrust-to-weight ratio than
our aircraft, Gripens still managed to get behind
the F-16s to make use of both their IR-missiles
and guns. The small visual signature and excellent
agility of the Gripen proved to be a considerable
advantage in a dogfight.”
Perhaps more tellingly, a Chinese People’s
Liberation Army Air Force report about a 2015
engagement exercise between PLAAF J-11s, the
Chinese version of the Su-27 Flanker, and Thai
Gripen Cs found that the J-11s won comfortably
in dogfights—their greater thrust-to-weight ratio
allowed them to turn faster and get shots off with
infrared missiles and cannon. They shot down 16
Gripens with no losses. But in beyond-visual-range
engagements, the Gripens were deadly: They shot
down 41 Flankers against nine losses.



Wow its like I've been saying this the entire time!

regarding the pictures of the "Smart cockpit" (F-35 has been smart for decades now it seems) is it a touch screen? it literally looks like someone took an 80s MFD and stretched it out.
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ricnunes

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Unread post16 Jan 2021, 16:10

spazsinbad wrote:
SMART FIGHTER [Eight page PDF of article attached below]
Mar 2021 TOM CHIVERS

"In an era when software upgrades are critical, the Gripen strives to be the iPhone [are we shot down yet?] of aircraft...."

Source: AIR & SPACE Smithsonian Magazine March 2021



Lots of 'gold comedy' up there I see. For instance:

the Gripen has been an export success for Saab. Brazil ordered 36.


LOL!
If we talk exclusively about the Gripen E/F there's only a single 'export' ('partnership' is a more accurate word) of 36 to Brazil and this is an export success??
Or if we talk about the other Gripen variants:
- 14 for Czech Republic and ALL LEASED.
- 14 for Hungary and ALL LEASED.
- 26 for South Africa
- 12 for Thailand

And the above are considered to be an "export success"?? Perhaps compared to ZERO exports it is :roll:


But an aircraft’s effectiveness is no longer determined mainly by how fast it can fly or how quickly it can turn. Now it’s about how well it can interpret information


Wasn't that one of the main criticism that many including Gripen fans pointed to the F-35?


So an aircraft’s effectiveness in battle is determined, in part, by how quickly its electronics can be upgraded.


Seems like a Copy/Paste from one of the F-35's features.


A further advantage is that Saab is able to avoid many of the political considerations that tied up the Eurofighter project. That meant it could buy off-the-shelf parts—for instance, it uses a General Electric F404 engine, built under license by Volvo. Using premade parts of known reliability reduces risk and cost. “It’s adding risk on risk if you’re building a new aeroplane and a new engine at the same time,” says Sneller. “You saw it with the F-35, A400M, Tornado, and Typhoon.


1- Using off-the-shelf parts (used on other existing fighter aircraft) for a new fighter aircraft will inevitably mean a more limited fighter aircraft since it immediately means that the new aircraft won't have a better performance and likely will have a worse performance than those other existing fighter aircraft just like happens with... (and guess, what?) ...the Gripen! :mrgreen:
2- Resuming, you'll need to develop new stuff in order to 'push the envelope' and make your new fighter aircraft better than existing aircraft just like happens with... (and guess, what?) ...the F-35! :wink:
3- Moreover, using off-the-shelf parts means that parts of 'your' fighter aircraft won't be 'yours' anymore. More on that at the end of this post

Processing power has other uses: Modern fighters can identify other aircraft by the particular radar signatures of the fan blades of their engines. “It started with the F-15,” says the former RAF pilot. “The radar blip has fuzzy lines from the engine modulation. If you have enough computing power, you can work out it’s a Russian engine in a MiG-29.”
He continues: “An F-35 is flying around looking for things. It’ll have flight plans for airliners. [The pilot will] get a blip. It will say that’s in an airway. There’s a 92-percent chance it’s an airliner. Whereas if it’s a small blip, I might want to spend a lot more effort finding out if it’s something I should be interested in.”


This could potentially be one of the most comical things I ever read around the Gripen. So from what I gather above (I could be wrong thou) is that the Gripen does NCTR (Non-Cooperative Target Recognition) using the old method of scanning the engine blades :doh:
How about the much more advanced ISAR method that the F-22 and F-35 for example use??
Good luck (for the Gripen) identifying fighter aircraft that have its engine blades hidden like in many/most modern fighter aircraft, let alone stealth aircraft like the F-35!

The Blip thing seems seems very:


BTW, F-35's don't show "Blips" to the pilot. They show "Tracks" to the pilot and the Track ID is gathered by merging data from several sensors (and not only from the radar).

“One thing that sets the Gripen apart from its direct competitors is the degree to which the entire aircraft and systems were designed around the electronic warfare suite,” says Justin Bronk, a research fellow at the Royal United Services Institute specializing in combat airpower and technology. That includes both electronic countermeasures (ECM) and counter-countermeasures. If an enemy radar is using a certain frequency, your ECM can blast thatfrequency at it, so that it is deafened with noise; but it can deploy counter-countermeasures, such as switching frequencies, so your ECM needs to be clever at identifying those frequency switches and keeping up.


And how's this electronic warfare suite in any way different from its "competitors"?? It seems to me that Mr. Justin Bronk just BONK into a wall!

Segertoft’s favorite analogy is the iPhone. When you upgrade to a newer version—with more processing power and a better camera—and then you boot it up, he asks, “Will you as a user notice? No, because the software is still working.”


Is it me or Saab just "stole" the F-35's iPhone analogy??

Bronk says that the EW suite in particular seems to be exceptional—outsiders don’t know, exactly, because these things are secret, but “on the rare occasions where Gripens [C variants] have turned up in something like war mode, the Typhoon pilots go ‘Wow, that seems really impressive.’ ”


BONK!
So outsiders don't know how "super mega advanced" the Gripen's EW suite really is but an outsider like BONK, err I mean Bronk knows it...
With the above (Typhoon pilots), perhaps it isn't that the Gripen's EW suite is "super advanced" or "super good" but perhaps it's the Typhoon's radar (which is MSA, BTW) that it isn't that good in terms of ECCM, no?

The Gripen has its weaknesses. Because of its small size, it pays a higher cost...
...they can’t actually keep up with them for very long.
...
Perhaps more tellingly, a Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force report about a 2015 engagement exercise between PLAAF J-11s, the Chinese version of the Su-27 Flanker, and Thai Gripen Cs found that the J-11s won comfortably in dogfights—their greater thrust-to-weight ratio allowed them to turn faster and get shots off with infrared missiles and cannon. They shot down 16 Gripens with no losses. But in beyond-visual-range engagements, the Gripens were deadly: They shot down 41 Flankers against nine losses.


Wait!! Didn't Gripen fans criticized the F-35 several times in the past that the F-35 would perform like the above. :roll:

Sweden’s neutrality has also been an advantage for some export deals. If you are a non-aligned country yourself say, Brazil—and you buy the F-35, you are making a geopolitical statement about where your allegiances lie. “Brazil doesn’t want to be too close to the U.S., or the Russians, or the Chinese,” says Sneller. “[Gripen] is therefore attractive to non-aligned countries, like Austria and Finland.”


Another BONK! moment...

Yeah, keep forgetting that the Gripen engine is from an "aligned country" called USA and 30% of the Gripen itself is from an "aligned country" called UK, the Radar comes from an "aligned country" called Italy, etc...
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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ricnunes

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Unread post16 Jan 2021, 16:12

XanderCrews wrote:regarding the pictures of the "Smart cockpit" (F-35 has been smart for decades now it seems) is it a touch screen? it literally looks like someone took an 80s MFD and stretched it out.


LOL!
I guess that you read my mind because I was just going to post exactly that :mrgreen:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post16 Jan 2021, 22:01

FTFA:

Sweden is taking
delivery of the first 60 Es now, and Brazil has
ordered 36 . There are hopes that Finland and
Canada may be future customers.
So far, says Fälthammar, the E has not flown
much against other aircraft since it is still under
development. But he waxes lyrical about how the
aircraft is to fly: “It’s such a lovely experience. When
you go down into the cockpit, it’s high-tech, it’s
sleek, it’s like sitting down in a modern sports car.”
Except, unlike most new cars, the upgradable
design means that countries won’t have to trade
a Gripen in for a new model every few years
—a
deal that’s tough to beat.

Sweden is taking delivery of the first 60 Es now...won’t have to trade a Gripen in for a new model

Sweden is taking delivery of the Es now... a new model

taking delivery of the first Es now... a new model

Image

Yes you don't need a new model after a short period. Which is why they are buying the new model after such a short period
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jessmo112

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Unread post16 Jan 2021, 23:06


Star_Wars_Chance_cube.mp4 [ 59.45 KiB | Viewed 13159 times ]

The things SAAB has to do to sell Griffens
Instead of making a long thread Ill just post a few memes. Those of us that are older will get it.

https://youtu.be/GO_xfR64qSk
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