Internal AIM-9s?

F-35 Armament, fuel tanks, internal and external hardpoints, loadouts, and other stores.
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orangefr3ak

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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 11:39

Can the F-35 be equipped with AIM-9s internally?
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zhangmdev

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Unread post21 Jul 2021, 12:08

Sidewinders are rail-launched. So, No.
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Unread post22 Jul 2021, 09:36

orangefr3ak wrote:Can the F-35 be equipped with AIM-9s internally?


It could be...but...either the missile would need significant alterations to become 'drop launched' clear of the bay or would need a 'trapeze' system to first deploy it out of the internal bay before the rocket motor could ignite and take it off the rail (this is the system that the F-22 uses).
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ricnunes

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Unread post22 Jul 2021, 12:33

timmymagic wrote:It could be...but...either the missile would need significant alterations to become 'drop launched' clear of the bay or would need a 'trapeze' system to first deploy it out of the internal bay before the rocket motor could ignite and take it off the rail (this is the system that the F-22 uses).


And just to complement what you said, the F-22 can only carry AIM-9s in the two (small) side bays (which can only carry a single AIM-9 each).
For instance the F-22 cannot carry AIM-9s in the main weapons bay (where the AIM-120s and other ordnance is carried).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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alloycowboy

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Unread post22 Jul 2021, 19:19

orangefr3ak wrote:Can the F-35 be equipped with AIM-9s internally?


If you using a Aim-9 on an F-35 you did something drastically wrong that you are that close in.
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Unread post22 Jul 2021, 19:41

alloycowboy wrote:
orangefr3ak wrote:Can the F-35 be equipped with AIM-9s internally?

If you using a Aim-9 on an F-35 you did something drastically wrong that you are that close in.

I wonder why there is provision for AIM-9X (whatever upgrade) (we seem them carried) near the underwing tip station?
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timmymagic

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Unread post23 Jul 2021, 20:03

alloycowboy wrote:
orangefr3ak wrote:Can the F-35 be equipped with AIM-9s internally?


If you using a Aim-9 on an F-35 you did something drastically wrong that you are that close in.


That may have been true of earlier generation IR missiles, but 9X, and particularly Asraam, have dramatically longer ranges than previous generations. There's also the pesky matter of ROE. Whether you're LO or not in the majority of combat uses those issues will remain.
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Unread post23 Jul 2021, 22:59

What do we know about any ROE for the F-35? We do know the F-35 is excellent at identifying bogies by some 650 or so parameters from afar with high confidence (this is seen on the display). This has been mentioned by an Oz Air Marshal.
Department of Defence annual report 2010-11
FRIDAY, 16 MARCH 2012 CANBERRA BY AUTHORITY OF THE PARLIAMENT page 61-62

“...Air Vice Marshal Osley: The F-35 will play to its strengths using low observability and using better situational awareness. Its aim would be not to get within visual range. It does not need to be within visual range because of the sensors it has on board. I mentioned before that it has perhaps three times the software and therefore the discrimination of other modern aircraft. Its strength is its ability to recognise and identify an enemy aircraft at beyond visual range well ahead of the other aircraft —...

...And so the strength of the joint strike fighter—and I use this as an example — is that it has the ability to have up to 650 parameters by which it will identify a potential threat out there. Other aircraft, such as the F-22 have about a third of that and fourth-generation aircraft have perhaps half a dozen. So if you are in an F-18 or in some of the other Soviet aircraft you only have a very limited understanding of what the threat is and being able to identify it at a distance. If we are able to do as we plan with the F-35, and that is to have good access to the software and to be able to program it appropriately with mission data, it will have the ability to identify hostile aircraft at quite a considerable distance. Then decisions will be made within the formation, it will play to its strengths and it will defeat it, but not by going within visual range....”

Source: http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/dow ... ficial.pdf
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ricnunes

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Unread post23 Jul 2021, 23:19

IMO, Sidewinders being carried by the F-35 should be useful for Air Policing missions since these kind of missions usually involves the interceptor aircraft, like the F-35 (or any other aircraft for that matter) to get very close and well within visual range of the intercepted aircraft in order to make the "statement"/point of making itself "present" and in case things "go south" in such a mission then Sidewinders could come handy.
Moreover, carrying two Sidewinders externally shouldn't increase RCS too much and together with 4 internal AMRAAMs (soon to be 6 in the A/C variants) gives the F-35 quite a punch for air-to-air roles specially when the enemy doesn't have advanced air defences or advanced 5th gen stealth fighter/interceptors but otherwise have older gen of fighter/interceptor aircraft or other types of aircraft (transport aircraft, helicopters, etc...).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post24 Jul 2021, 14:38

timmymagic wrote:
orangefr3ak wrote:Can the F-35 be equipped with AIM-9s internally?


It could be...but...either the missile would need significant alterations to become 'drop launched' clear of the bay or would need a 'trapeze' system to first deploy it out of the internal bay before the rocket motor could ignite and take it off the rail (this is the system that the F-22 uses).


The UK originally planned for the ASRAAM to be carried both internally and externally using the weapons bay door pylon on the F-35B in LOAL mode. This would have paved the way for the Aim-9X to be cleared off the back of this.

However, the UK pulled funding in 2016 and instead only had it cleared for external carriage. They also pulled funding for Brimstone internal/external integration and Storm Shadow external carriage at the same time.

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zhangmdev

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Unread post24 Jul 2021, 15:53

The original plan was to carry 4 ASRAAMs internally, on A2A and A2G stations. But that configuration was changed later.

https://www.f-16.net/f-35-news-article2762.html

Consider the requirement to launch AIM-9X during high G maneuvers or when inverted, clearing the weapon by ejector isn't very feasible. Designing a special trapeze for this purpose may not be worthwhile.
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Unread post26 Jul 2021, 11:41

spazsinbad wrote:What do we know about any ROE for the F-35? We do know the F-35 is excellent at identifying bogies by some 650 or so parameters from afar with high confidence (this is seen on the display). This has been mentioned by an Oz Air Marshal.


Doesn't really matter, usually there is blanket ROE for all types like 'visually identify as hostile'. The ability to safely identify a threat as a threat further out will help when there are less restrictive ROE or enable a greater confidence in a shot at an earlier stage.
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Unread post26 Jul 2021, 11:43

boff180 wrote:
timmymagic wrote:
orangefr3ak wrote:Can the F-35 be equipped with AIM-9s internally?


It could be...but...either the missile would need significant alterations to become 'drop launched' clear of the bay or would need a 'trapeze' system to first deploy it out of the internal bay before the rocket motor could ignite and take it off the rail (this is the system that the F-22 uses).


The UK originally planned for the ASRAAM to be carried both internally and externally using the weapons bay door pylon on the F-35B in LOAL mode. This would have paved the way for the Aim-9X to be cleared off the back of this.

However, the UK pulled funding in 2016 and instead only had it cleared for external carriage. They also pulled funding for Brimstone internal/external integration and Storm Shadow external carriage at the same time.

Andy


Indeed, it was sensible to cancel all those at the time as it was increasingly clear that by the time Blk IV arrived Storm Shadow would be near its OSD, Brimstone's role was taken by Spear and Asraam would be replaced by the Asraam Blk.6 as well. At the time it looked crazy, but as time has dragged on it increasingly looks like a very smart move and use of funds.
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Unread post26 Jul 2021, 11:48

timmymagic wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:What do we know about any ROE for the F-35? We do know the F-35 is excellent at identifying bogies by some 650 or so parameters from afar with high confidence (this is seen on the display). This has been mentioned by an Oz Air Marshal.

Doesn't really matter, usually there is blanket ROE for all types like 'visually identify as hostile'. The ability to safely identify a threat as a threat further out will help when there are less restrictive ROE or enable a greater confidence in a shot at an earlier stage.

Of course it matters. Any reference(s) to your claim please? Tah.
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Unread post26 Jul 2021, 17:22

I personally think two external AIM-9x's have very little effect on the F-35's RCS. Especially when you figure in its electronic warfare suite, towed decoys etc..

Of course we'll never know because they'll never tell us. But it's hard for me to imagine engineers didn't at leat try to mimimize AIM-9x signature when carried externally. Whatever it is, you can bet its dramatically less than a 4th or even 4.5 gen fighter flying with the same..
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