F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2017, 18:16
by markithere
We keep reading how the legacy cross over pilots/instructors can't wait to get the fighter in the hands of new pilots to see them create new unthought of tactics. Well here is a space to list whatever you can come up with that might be possible with the F-35.

For psychological effects a pilot could have the plane "spoofing a number like cell phones today do" call the intended target using their phone system and announce how their buddy just down the street is going to end and that you are next. This moves the military target to a land line and you could record the voice for proof of success and know exactly where he is standing.

You could use the plane to tap into load speakers at a facility and instruct people to assemble to make use of one bomb or to clear an area for the bomb.

For video cameras attached to network systems at target facility you can hack into them and show live video of the incoming bomb to the leader of that country showing him how over matched he is and should bend to diplomatic resolutions. For what that is worth show him his baby monitor as a live feed.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2017, 18:50
by SpudmanWP
Given that the F-35's EODAS provides YATO (You Are The One, which tells a pilot if a missile is headed towards them), that the APG-81 AESA has a very tight beam with little leakage, and that "Cooperative EW" is in the works for early FOM integration.... I see a Jamming mode where F-35s will actively jam inbound missiles that are not aimed at them so the missile wastes maneuver energy using HOJ to chase a jammer that is outside of it's engagement capability.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2017, 19:07
by markithere
You could use the DAS system from two planes flying in formation to create a stereoscopic image of the surrounding area. At the same time increase the resolution capability to twice what is achieved by a single plane. Similar to cameras that take and stitch together multiple images to create a super hires image. Doing this will increase what is possible with more than one plane. Google superresolution photos with photoshop for more on this.b

Like this

http://gigapan.com/gigapans/6790

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2017, 19:56
by steve2267
Man, I just want a real, live disappear switch. Maybe a retractable Ronseburg lense. Something that could make me appear to be a flight of F-16's (or SHornets or Eagles). Then hit my disappear switch to f*ck with the enema's heads. Could possibly screw with their tactical disposition.

But a real disappear switch would be uber cool, me thinks.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2017, 21:30
by luke_sandoz
steve2267 wrote:Man, I just want a real, live disappear switch. Maybe a retractable Ronseburg lense. Something that could make me appear to be a flight of F-16's (or SHornets or Eagles). Then hit my disappear switch to f*ck with the enema's heads. Could possibly screw with their tactical disposition.

But a real disappear switch would be uber cool, me thinks.



They are working on that do for the F-35 Mark 2. Initial lab trials are quite promising.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2017, 10:54
by hornetfinn
steve2267 wrote:Man, I just want a real, live disappear switch. Maybe a retractable Ronseburg lense. Something that could make me appear to be a flight of F-16's (or SHornets or Eagles). Then hit my disappear switch to f*ck with the enema's heads. Could possibly screw with their tactical disposition.


I think the same could be achieved electronically. Basically use the EW capabilties of F-35s to create false targets to enemy radars while keeping the actual aircraft fully stealthy. That would be much safer and one F-35 could create large number of false targets making things much more difficult to enemy. Given the very narrow beamwidth and low sidelobes of AN/APG-81 along with the very low power levels required, it would be very difficult to tell if it was made by deceptive jamming or if the radar contacts are real aircraft.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2017, 12:07
by hornetfinn
I think the combination of VLO stealth, sensors, sensor fusion, CNI system and EW capability in F-35 really call for swarming tactics as they have the tools to coordinate and synchronize with each other almost instatly. F-35s can and do fly very widely separated from each other and can quickly mass where needed and disperse quickly, This makes it much more difficult for enemy to counter them as they are everywhere and nowhere at the same time. This means enemy that finds one F-35 has to be very, very worried about all those F-35s (and F-22s) that he doesn't see and doesn't have faintest idea how many or where they might be.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2017, 14:31
by steve2267
That recent article in BusinessInsider:

An F-35 pilot explains how the stealth fighter can have a crushing psychological effect on the enemy
by Alex Lockie May 4, 2017[/size]

Retired US Marine Corps Maj. Dan Flatley will never forget the crushing feeling of helplessness he felt the first time he faced a stealth jet while he was flying in an F/A-18.

"I remember indelibly the moment in which the AWAC (airborne early warning and control plane) called out to me that there was a Raptor [an F-22 stealth fighter] in front of me at very close range that made me uncomfortable," Flatley told Business Insider in a phone interview.

"I had no way of targeting him, no way of defending myself."

...

"What the public doesn’t realize is how dominant the difference in information is," said Flatley. While the F-35 performs similarly to legacy jets in some areas like speed, turning, and range, there's a huge, ever-growing information gap between what the F-35 pilot sees and what an F-18 pilot sees.

...

The distinct information disadvantage causes pilots to get tunnel vision, according to Flatley.

"Everything they see becomes the F-35 out there," said Flatley. "Every radar hit, every communication is about the stealth jet. They want to illuminate or eliminate a threat they can’t handle."

The fear and paranoia caused by the presence of stealth jets in a battle has a widespread effect on adversaries that "includes extremely capable legacy jets and certainly includes everything available to adversaries," said Flatley of updated F-16s, F-15s, and even enemy air defenses like Russia's S-400.

...

Even extremely capable operators fall prey to the F-35's psychological advantage. "It has nothing to do with their skill or technology. They’re at such a technological disadvantage," said Flatley. "I've seen guys in F-18s turn directly in front of me and show me their tails cause they have no idea I’m there."

In the end, "It aggregates to a completely inept response to what we’re doing in the air," said Flatley. "People are so hellbent on shooting down the stealth fighter that they invariably make mistakes that I can exploit."

http://www.businessinsider.com/psychological-effect-f-35-stealth-legacy-fighter-2017-5


The disappear switch would play on this fear and paranoia. Give the enema a whiff of where you are, but you aren't there... Make them see a package of F-16's over there, and a separate package of F-18's over here... but then let the fade away, or not. Engage "flicker mode" where you let them think they've detected (!) an F-35 somewhere else... just enough to give them a taste. Play with their minds. Totally get inside their OODA loop (individual and collective) and have a party.

Is MALD-J stealthy? A stealthy, internally carried MALD-J that you could use to "seed" the battlespace and exacerbate this effect could leverage the number of F-35's. Especially if you could carry on the same sort of EW games with it, and not simply jam.

I like the idea of a disappear switch, but perhaps it should be called a f**k with their mind switch or just the mindgames switch.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2017, 14:15
by mixelflick
If it really can make false targets appear on the enemy's radar, that's huge. The Russians (or whoever) are going to expend a lot of ordinance chasing ghosts. The F-35 will lay in wait, likely until the enemy is out of AAM's.

Air combat sure is changing. I wonder if Russia, China etc will be able to follow suite. This is one of those change or die moments in life. All the supermaneuverability in the world isn't going to save them...

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2017, 17:36
by sprstdlyscottsmn
As I understand it this was done by dedicated jamming assets back in 1991.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2017, 18:25
by juretrn
mixelflick wrote:If it really can make false targets appear on the enemy's radar, that's huge. The Russians (or whoever) are going to expend a lot of ordinance chasing ghosts. The F-35 will lay in wait, likely until the enemy is out of AAM's.

Air combat sure is changing. I wonder if Russia, China etc will be able to follow suite. This is one of those change or die moments in life. All the supermaneuverability in the world isn't going to save them...

Makes you wonder if they'd be willing to fire those big, expensive S-400 missiles at distant ghosts that may or may not be stealth aircraft.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2017, 18:57
by glennwhitten
If you can create fake aircraft radar signals, could you entice the enemy to fire long range missiles at a fake AWACS or fake tanker? also i have read about consideration of using b-52's as missile trucks- you could perhaps create a fake b-52 missile truck. Could you simulate a fake AAM or SAM launch? Or could you spoof the enemy to shoot down his own wing-man by making it look like one of ours on radar? Or create fake radio communication signals to simulate another flight approaching from a different direction. Or spoof his SAMS to fire on his own aircraft. Lots of possibilities.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2017, 00:55
by count_to_10
glennwhitten wrote:If you can create fake aircraft radar signals, could you entice the enemy to fire long range missiles at a fake AWACS or fake tanker? also i have read about consideration of using b-52's as missile trucks- you could perhaps create a fake b-52 missile truck. Could you simulate a fake AAM or SAM launch? Or could you spoof the enemy to shoot down his own wing-man by making it look like one of ours on radar? Or create fake radio communication signals to simulate another flight approaching from a different direction. Or spoof his SAMS to fire on his own aircraft. Lots of possibilities.

For the most part, the radar ghosts have to be on the same line of sight as the aircraft doing the spoofing (though there is apparently something that can be done with side lobes), and it's hard to make one closer to the radar than the spoofer (maybe impossible against AESA). Faking a big target like a BUFF or AWACS is probably doable, but you would practically have to be hacking the radar's operating system to make it see a friendly as you.
On the other hand, if intel has aquired their IFF codes for you, there are some interesting possibilities.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2017, 15:03
by mixelflick
Anyone remember the quail drone the B-52 carried? This would be the electronic version of that, yes?

The SU-35's PESA and PAK FA's AESA better be pretty good at spotting the real deal vs. ghosts. Last I read, the PAK FA was only going to carry 4 longer range AAM's plus 2 Archer's. That brings their shot total down to 6. Likewise the SU-35 could load up with a 12 AAM loadout, but if they're firing salvo's of 4 missile's apiece, they're down to 3 attempts.

Of course, I'm guessing the Russians/Chinese are working on this too. That makes the meager 2-4 AAM loadout the F-35 carries concerning. However, then we get back to arsenal planes/F-18's and 15's loaded with AMRAAM's. I dunno about the Russians/Chinese. What I do know, is that this kind of SA is being constantly honed/perfected NOW in the US and with our allies.

Until the Russians get the PAK FA in larger numbers, they'll have no 5th gen capability to work with. Best they can do is send wave after wave of Flankers up. That means they're playing the numbers game, and they no longer hold a 3-1 (or more) advantage.

There will be literally thousands of F-35's produced. Looking at the decision to go full steam ahead with the F-35, it makes more sense now. Had we produced 300-600 F-22's, that would be the US only. F-35's are poised to be like Hornets are today.

Everywhere...!!!

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2017, 16:50
by blindpilot
count_to_10 wrote:
glennwhitten wrote:If you can create fake aircraft radar signals, could you entice the enemy to fire long range missiles at a fake AWACS or fake tanker? also i have read about consideration of using b-52's as missile trucks- you could perhaps create a fake b-52 missile truck. Could you .... Lots of possibilities.

... Faking a big target like a BUFF or AWACS is probably doable, but you would practically have to be hacking the radar's operating system to make it see a friendly as you.
....


Not really the thread for it, but the conversation is making a major point very clear ... even if the "Wonder Woman miracle" of stealth is totally overcome at some future date ... "V"LO Stealth continues to be a game changer for some of these scenarios. That's because "even if IT goes away," VLO spoofing, jamming, faking, decoying, all become easier and with less power/resources, than for those who do not have it. That will never change until the Laws of Physics change .. ie. never.

What is true for "a big target like a BUFF or AWACS" reaches down into the rest of the fleet with VLO stealth.

MHO
BP

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2017, 18:11
by markithere
Using the interconnected MADL system and the Helmet display have a feature whereby one pilot can control the other craft due to loss of consciousness of a pilot. Have the aware pilot voice control his own craft through the autopilot feature while bringing the other pilot to a safe landing to receive needed help.

In case a plane gets stolen have a feature where oxygen can be reduced or gas addministered to theft pilot and then control craft back to safe landing.

Have the plane monitor the pilot's health and when in distress let the turnover control command be handled by the plane's AI. Have AI call wingman ship and request the help.

If AI is good enough have it do this.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2017, 15:55
by steve2267
markithere wrote:Using the interconnected MADL system and the Helmet display have a feature whereby one pilot can control the other craft due to loss of consciousness of a pilot. Have the aware pilot voice control his own craft through the autopilot feature while bringing the other pilot to a safe landing to receive needed help.


Playing devil's advocate with your suggestion(s)... given the ability of unmanned aircraft (e.g. X-47B) to conduct autonomous approach and (carrier!) landings... and to avoid introducing a potential enama (remote takeover) attack on the F-35, wouldn't it be better to simply implement an auto-GCAS feature (already planned for Block 4, if memory serves) and enhance it with an automated fly-back-to-home-or-nearest-airfield feature?

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2017, 20:02
by markithere
steve2267 wrote:
markithere wrote:Using the interconnected MADL system and the Helmet display have a feature whereby one pilot can control the other craft due to loss of consciousness of a pilot. Have the aware pilot voice control his own craft through the autopilot feature while bringing the other pilot to a safe landing to receive needed help.


Playing devil's advocate with your suggestion(s)... given the ability of unmanned aircraft (e.g. X-47B) to conduct autonomous approach and (carrier!) landings... and to avoid introducing a potential enama (remote takeover) attack on the F-35, wouldn't it be better to simply implement an auto-GCAS feature (already planned for Block 4, if memory serves) and enhance it with an automated fly-back-to-home-or-nearest-airfield feature?



I did say let the AI do it if it can. That being said I like the way you said it better.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2017, 20:12
by markithere
Have the F-35 DAS system generate 3D image of ground below craft where current overlap from the sensors could be used to create a 3D map of the area for ground forces to use if the need for such a mission is warranted. Tracking data from the roads observed could be used to show trafficked roads in use during the scans. It could also include classified targets of interest for the ground troops. EM emissions could be used to help locate cell phone IED coverage. If bombs also have a receiving phone in the detonator loop it's emissions could be shown too.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2017, 00:51
by popcorn
markithere wrote:Have the F-35 DAS system generate 3D image of ground below craft where current overlap from the sensors could be used to create a 3D map of the area for ground forces to use if the need for such a mission is warranted. Tracking data from the roads observed could be used to show trafficked roads in use during the scans. It could also include classified targets of interest for the ground troops. EM emissions could be used to help locate cell phone IED coverage. If bombs also have a receiving phone in the detonator loop it's emissions could be shown too.

just send a UAV...

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=53089

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2017, 03:29
by SpudmanWP
Think Airborne Bistatic radars.

Each pulse that an F-35 sends out contains data to ID when and where it was sent from. Other F-35s that have the right keys to understand the data can build a picture of the environment using reflected radar info.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2017, 09:16
by vanshilar
Depending on how good the F-35's sensors are...use enemy AWACS to detect enemy planes.

Think about it. F-35 detects enemy AWACS radar. If there are enemy (non-stealthy) aircraft, they will likely reflect the radar energy to a certain extent as well. The F-35 may be able to use the time delay between AWACS signal and enemy aircraft signal to get an approximate estimate of the distance, and may be able to get a bearing on the plane directly depending on its sensors.

So basically bistatic radar...except using the enemy AWACS as the transmitter. Enemy air forces might not really want to send up an AWACS...

Edit: Oops, apparently this has already been thought of before. It's called passive radar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_radar

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 23:03
by markithere
With a larger bandwidth you could add extra crew to the plane virtually. It could give them the ability to make the aircraft do more simultaneously than one person alone could do. You could change out those crew as the tasks dictate while still in the air. You could do multiple mission requirements concurrently with just one aircraft. Electronic weapons officer dedicated to that task while another person is dedicated to ground, etc... Let's say one of these virtual crew sees something a number of miles west of the aircraft. Now let's say another F-35 is closer. He could with a push of a button jump to that craft and scan the area of interest. Then go back to the original craft as needed.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 17:57
by markithere
In radio telescope use in astronomy they can link many different telescopes and get a resolution as if it was one giant telescope which would not be possible to build. This is called interferometry. Since the F-35s are linked in a formation of 4 planes could this be used to create a huge radar and possibly detect other stealth planes? Could this be used to increase the sensitivity of their “normal” radars creating a super radar stretching the detection range far beyond what any single plane could ever do?

I see there are different types of interferometry radars already. My post above has to do with increasing resolution by use of the 4 ship arrangement working together. In other words using what you have but in a different way to increase capabilities if not already doing so.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 18:28
by markithere
Can the laser designator be used or some other not named instrument on the F-35 be used to sample the atmosphere through which the laser is beamed as an atmosphere Lidar? This way the plane can sense for bio hazardous environments, specific gas emissions to locate camouflaged enemy assets, or radio active gasses from dirty bombs or A bombs. The computer could then alert the pilot who could command ground troops to mop4 up. The pilot could request from the plane what the current boundaries are affected and give the info to the ground troops.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 04:04
by rheonomic
steve2267 wrote:
markithere wrote:Using the interconnected MADL system and the Helmet display have a feature whereby one pilot can control the other craft due to loss of consciousness of a pilot. Have the aware pilot voice control his own craft through the autopilot feature while bringing the other pilot to a safe landing to receive needed help.


Playing devil's advocate with your suggestion(s)... given the ability of unmanned aircraft (e.g. X-47B) to conduct autonomous approach and (carrier!) landings... and to avoid introducing a potential enama (remote takeover) attack on the F-35, wouldn't it be better to simply implement an auto-GCAS feature (already planned for Block 4, if memory serves) and enhance it with an automated fly-back-to-home-or-nearest-airfield feature?


Probably best way to integrate such a feature would be to take some of the outer loop functionality from a UAS (e.g. MQ-25, etc.) and implement it on the CLAW app. E.g. some trajectory generation, then waypoint following, and then an autoland (as demonstrated on F-16).

How useful that is is another thing -- AutoGCAS probably covers most situations.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 08:08
by neptune
rheonomic wrote:
steve2267 wrote:
markithere wrote:Using the interconnected MADL system and the Helmet display have a feature whereby one pilot can control the other craft due to loss of consciousness of a pilot. Have the aware pilot voice control his own craft through the autopilot feature while bringing the other pilot to a safe landing to receive needed help.


Playing devil's advocate with your suggestion(s)... given the ability of unmanned aircraft (e.g. X-47B) to conduct autonomous approach and (carrier!) landings... and to avoid introducing a potential enama (remote takeover) attack on the F-35, wouldn't it be better to simply implement an auto-GCAS feature (already planned for Block 4, if memory serves) and enhance it with an automated fly-back-to-home-or-nearest-airfield feature?


Probably best way to integrate such a feature would be to take some of the outer loop functionality from a UAS (e.g. MQ-25, etc.) and implement it on the CLAW app. E.g. some trajectory generation, then waypoint following, and then an autoland (as demonstrated on F-16).

How useful that is is another thing -- AutoGCAS probably covers most situations.


....please consider that Delta Flight Path and JPALS will automate carrier landings, no pilot required. Probably WDT interval manual response to maintain manual control vs. autonomous RTB.
:)

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 14:06
by hornetfinn
markithere wrote:Can the laser designator be used or some other not named instrument on the F-35 be used to sample the atmosphere through which the laser is beamed as an atmosphere Lidar? This way the plane can sense for bio hazardous environments, specific gas emissions to locate camouflaged enemy assets, or radio active gasses from dirty bombs or A bombs. The computer could then alert the pilot who could command ground troops to mop4 up. The pilot could request from the plane what the current boundaries are affected and give the info to the ground troops.


I think it could be used for that, but would require some hardware changes and additional software. I doubt it currently can do LIDAR rapid scanning as targeting pods and IRST systems generally don't have that kind of functionality. I'm sure it could be done, but maybe that's better left to UAVs and specialized aircraft?

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 17:08
by monkeypilot
markithere wrote:You could use the DAS system from two planes flying in formation to create a stereoscopic image of the surrounding area. At the same time increase the resolution capability to twice what is achieved by a single plane. Similar to cameras that take and stitch together multiple images to create a super hires image. Doing this will increase what is possible with more than one plane. Google superresolution photos with photoshop for more on this.b

Like this

http://gigapan.com/gigapans/6790


That's called datafusion ;)

So basically bistatic radar...except using the enemy AWACS as the transmitter. Enemy air forces might not really want to send up an AWACS...


passive radar. Most promising emitters are DVBT waveforms (allow 3dimension measurements) but limited range.

Each pulse that an F-35 sends out contains data to ID when and where it was sent from. Other F-35s that have the right keys to understand the data can build a picture of the environment using reflected radar info.


Multistatic radar? Very interesting. Any link?

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2018, 13:52
by monkeypilot
Wondering how would have fared a F-18 E/F and X47 UCLASS tandem vs F-35? I know. This is science fiction.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2018, 14:59
by XanderCrews
Artillery FO

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 22:43
by monkeypilot
Could happen with SU35/SKAT no? (similar concept as loyal wingman?)

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 22:49
by SpudmanWP
The problem with the SU35/SKAT combo is that the SU35 is not VLO and its datalinks are not LPD/LPI (ie not directional).

Basically it would be advertising its presence every time it communicated with its "wingman".

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 13:19
by monkeypilot
It doses not change the concept doese it? (providing a datalink) Using a ultra VLO UCLASS as a scout within a 4th Gen patrol.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 17:22
by SpudmanWP
SKAT does have the senors to keep the 4th gen asset far enough away to be safe from a full 5th gen force. It's also subsonic only. Another problem is that with the SU35 being so far back necessitates very large AAMs which are not designed with endame maneuverability to take on fighters, but are designed to attack slow & lumbering assets like IFR, ISR, AWACS, etc.

Use some other UCAV designed for the role of a VLO escort then maybe, but the UCAV itself would need to be armed.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 01:31
by vilters
Russian tactics could repeat history.
What did the Germans say in WW2?
Anybody Remember?
"Forget the fighters", go for the bombers. That's what they said.

Well, in modern times?

Russians (or Chinese for that matter) => Forget the fighters.
(there's NO way to get F-35 and F-22 with what you have right now.)

Go for the tankers, AWACS, Command and Control.
Without their support, the western Fighters loose half their combat value.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 02:12
by madrat
The one issue I fear is bum rushing an area with sensor-laden rockets to test for the presence of an F-35. If they can basically ping one, they can concentrate firepower on an isolated member. It doesn't have to be efficient cost-wise, just attrition-wise. This really is mainly a risk if an airspace can be swarmed with some sort of effective package with respect to an intended mission.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 02:14
by SpudmanWP
vilters wrote:Go for the tankers, AWACS, Command and Control.
Without their support, the western Fighters loose half their combat value.


Which is one of the drivers that dictated the F-35's massive internal fuel load.

The larger fuel load means that the tankers can stay further back, well out of fighter range.

madrat wrote:The one issue I fear is bum rushing an area with sensor-laden rockets to test for the presence of an F-35.
??

The killbox to detect a VLO fighter with an AAM sized seeker is extremely small. Don't forget, if you think that the F-35 is within your weapon's range, then you are within the F-35's weapon range too.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 02:30
by tailgate
vilters wrote:Russian tactics could repeat history.
What did the Germans say in WW2?
Anybody Remember?
"Forget the fighters", go for the bombers. That's what they said.

Well, in modern times?

Russians (or Chinese for that matter) => Forget the fighters.
(there's NO way to get F-35 and F-22 with what you have right now.)

Go for the tankers, AWACS, Command and Control.
Without their support, the western Fighters loose half their combat value.


I see your point.....but the USAF , and all others for that matter, put A LOT of emphasis on HAVCAP capability. Most of my time in ODS was HAVCAP. Chinese and Russians cannot match our capacity to put supporting assets out there so this won’t happen. No driver out there is going go chasing around after tankers, AWACS , etc. you will quickly become priority number uno. The shitstorm coming your way would be interesting to watch.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 18:50
by monkeypilot
Isn't that precisely why cjinese and russians are working on very long range missiles?

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 21:14
by XanderCrews
vilters wrote:Russian tactics could repeat history.
What did the Germans say in WW2?
Anybody Remember?
"Forget the fighters", go for the bombers. That's what they said.



How'd that work out for them?


Well, in modern times?

Russians (or Chinese for that matter) => Forget the fighters.
(there's NO way to get F-35 and F-22 with what you have right now.)

Go for the tankers, AWACS, Command and Control.
Without their support, the western Fighters loose half their combat value.



People have been saying this since the 1980s vilters. Once again you are not special.

Turns out it's really not easy to do either. Your flinging fighters specifically at systems that are designed to absorb, manage and destroy large amounts of enemy fighters.

Your plan is as brilliant as saying you should charge the machine guns, since trenches are more vulnerable without them. True, but it's also fine with the machine gunners. Burn out their barrels!

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 21:18
by XanderCrews
tailgate wrote:
vilters wrote:Russian tactics could repeat history.
What did the Germans say in WW2?
Anybody Remember?
"Forget the fighters", go for the bombers. That's what they said.

Well, in modern times?

Russians (or Chinese for that matter) => Forget the fighters.
(there's NO way to get F-35 and F-22 with what you have right now.)

Go for the tankers, AWACS, Command and Control.
Without their support, the western Fighters loose half their combat value.


I see your point.....but the USAF , and all others for that matter, put A LOT of emphasis on HAVCAP capability. Most of my time in ODS was HAVCAP. Chinese and Russians cannot match our capacity to put supporting assets out there so this won’t happen. No driver out there is going go chasing around after tankers, AWACS , etc. you will quickly become priority number uno. The shitstorm coming your way would be interesting to watch.


Yep. How does one sneak up on AWACs? And when the AWACs starts not running but running toward and leading the enemy to the closest batch of fighters, how well does that work out?

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 21:59
by vilters
Nothing simpler then to sneak to an AWACS when you more or less know where it's gonna be.

Why does nobody think outside of the box anymore?????

Think.
it is dead simple to get to an AWACS or ANY other plane.
But you have to think outside of the box.

PS : it is even simpler when they fly a steady patrol route.
Then just let him come into YOUR firing range. Now THAT's what I call having FUN.

Think outside of the box.

Got it yet?

No?

Still no go?

You"ll find me at 100 kts and 100Ft above a train doing also 100 kts.

Yes, yes, he did see the train coming, then removed the ground "clutter" (and me) LOL, LOL, LOL..
If you are not comfortable at 100 ft and 100kts, you"r in the wrong plane for the mission.

When In range?
Burner.
Nose up.
FIRE.

Dive for the next train to get outa there. In some countries you can take the highway and equalize speed.
Anyway, they"ll have a hard time finding a firing solution against all the ground clutter on the way out.
And if it gets too hot?
Throttle ide, gear down, land, walk away.

A "high value asset" is worth taking the airplane gamble, and the risk for the pilot is minimal.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 22:13
by SpudmanWP
You are assuming that the AWACS will let itself get to your weapon range instead of just vectoring a 5th gen asset to take you out.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 22:15
by vilters
The AWACS did see the train coming,
Then removed the ground clutter (and me).

I just had to wait for the right moment.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 22:22
by SpudmanWP
Why bother with trying to match highway speed.. Just drive a SAM launcher (hidden in a shipping container) on the highway and launch passively.

Btw, AWACS are used more in a defensive posture over friendly territory puts a damper on your plan.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 22:35
by XanderCrews
vilters wrote:Nothing simpler then to sneak to an AWACS when you more or less know where it's gonna be.


LOL sure!

Why does nobody think outside of the box anymore?????


Its not outside the box



Think.
it is dead simple to get to an AWACS or ANY other plane.
But you have to think outside of the box.

PS : it is even simpler when they fly a steady patrol route.
Then just let him come into YOUR firing range. Now THAT's what I call having FUN.

Think outside of the box.

Got it yet?

No?

Still no go?


Yep still a no go.

You"ll find me at 100 kts and 100Ft above a train doing also 100 kts.


LOL Below stall speed at 100 ft? What could go wrong?

Yes, yes, he did see the train coming, then removed the ground "clutter" (and me) LOL, LOL, LOL..
If you are not comfortable at 100 ft and 100kts, you"r in the wrong plane for the mission.

When In range?
Burner.
Nose up.
FIRE.



LOL ok. and You were in the Belgian Air force?? Seriously?

Because thats hollywood writing right there!!


Dive for the next train to get outa there. In some countries you can take the highway and equalize speed.
Anyway, they"ll have a hard time finding a firing solution against all the ground clutter on the way out.
And if it gets too hot?
Throttle ide, gear down, land, walk away.



Image


A "high value asset" is worth taking the airplane gamble, and the risk for the pilot is minimal.



LOL christ vilters. You may have topped your P-47s to destroy ISIS, Coca Cola 737, and HAnd Grenage Piper Cubs all in one post. Now we have the Train plane.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 22:43
by XanderCrews
SpudmanWP wrote:Why bother with trying to match highway speed.. Just drive a SAM launcher (hidden in a shipping container) on the highway and launch passively.


What!? Thats not convoluted enough.


Far better to have a fighter at 100 KNOTS and 100 feet!! LOLOLOLOL And we all know how smart that would be in a fighter thats also loaded for combat and heavy enough to have an afterburner.

Do it boys. 100 knots and 100 ft --armed! What could go wrong?!

Btw, AWACS are used more in a defensive posture over friendly territory puts a damper on your plan.


Think outside the box. For some reason the AWACS has stumbled into enemy territory even though it has a radar that sees hundreds of miles, and dozens of fighters that can be vectored against any threat.

Did I mention the train has a billboard of naked ladies on it? And a car that reads "Free pizza" and thus the AWACS pilots will fly to visually spot teh boobies and smell food?

Think outside the box.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 22:57
by vilters
So sorry, I forgot.
100 kts at 100 ft is not in your ROE's and Procedures. So it can not be done.

That's your limitation : You are prohibited to "think".

Sorry, my mistake.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 00:29
by XanderCrews
vilters wrote:So sorry, I forgot.
100 kts at 100 ft is not in your ROE's and Procedures. So it can not be done.


It can't be done because the stall speed on an F-16 is about 120 knots at best vilters, and if the pilot makes one error it could result in a crash... over a train.

The nose alpha on an F-16 is limited as well.

You specifically mentioned afterburners so I'm curious how many fighter class airplanes equipped with afterburners are cruising and controllable at 100 knots let alone not falling out of the sky. (And with no room to recover at that.)

Name some, I'll wait. In fact I think there is only one:


Image



That's your limitation : You are prohibited to "think".

Sorry, my mistake.


Lol no vilters I just think beyond your original idea -- to the actual logistics and feasibility of how one would bring that plan to fruition.

But if you "thinking" you are so unique and unprohibited is so special to you, maybe you can go to another forum where people don't know what stall speed is.


How do you "think" past physics Vilters? And i dont mean with hallucinogens. What amount of rewriting the ROEs changes airflow over a wing?

Please explain.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 00:59
by neptune
Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL) is;
- a fast switching narrow directional communications data link between a flight of F-35 aircraft
- is expected to provide needed (broad band) throughput, latency, frequency-hopping and anti-jamming capability with phased array antennas that send and receive tightly directed radio signals
- uses the Ku band
- has linked F-35B to USS Desert Ship LLS-1 for SM-6 targeting
- "could" link F-35 to "inflight" air refueling tankers
- "could" link F-35 to AWACS type a/c; E-3, E-2D, etc.
- "could" link F-35 to ships in CSG (CVN, CG, DDG, LCS/ FFG) or ARG (LHA/D, LPD, LSD)
:)

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 01:21
by count_to_10
vilters wrote:Nothing simpler then to sneak to an AWACS when you more or less know where it's gonna be.

Why does nobody think outside of the box anymore?????

Think.
it is dead simple to get to an AWACS or ANY other plane.
But you have to think outside of the box.

PS : it is even simpler when they fly a steady patrol route.
Then just let him come into YOUR firing range. Now THAT's what I call having FUN.

Think outside of the box.

Got it yet?

No?

Still no go?

You"ll find me at 100 kts and 100Ft above a train doing also 100 kts.

Yes, yes, he did see the train coming, then removed the ground "clutter" (and me) LOL, LOL, LOL..
If you are not comfortable at 100 ft and 100kts, you"r in the wrong plane for the mission.

When In range?
Burner.
Nose up.
FIRE.

Dive for the next train to get outa there. In some countries you can take the highway and equalize speed.
Anyway, they"ll have a hard time finding a firing solution against all the ground clutter on the way out.
And if it gets too hot?
Throttle ide, gear down, land, walk away.

A "high value asset" is worth taking the airplane gamble, and the risk for the pilot is minimal.

So, you read Debt of Honor?
Though, in hind sight, that wouldn’t have worked: the helicopter’s rotor would have given it away, even if its body was hidden by matching speed to the train. Also, the F15/F-22 shadow trick was probably unnecessary.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 01:25
by spazsinbad
Why not fly a fighter asset or two CLOSE to the wings of the BIG BOY so that they all appear as one big DOT. Bogey gets close then WHAMMO! Splash one boogie man. A4Gs used to emulate KENNEL missiles under wings of HS748s for exercise.

Never happen-like a lot of other BAD IDEAS. Why risk your BIG BOY asset with such nonsense? Shoot the bogies down ASAP.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 03:23
by steve2267
Is Vilters on his Cessna kick again? Cessna with BVR missiles to shoot down AWACS? Well, that would have to be Cessna with IR missiles... MICA-IR? ASRAAM? Needs a BVR IR seeker. Who's going to lend those to some Skyhawks or 182's?

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 04:38
by madrat
The EODAS is basically built on IIR technology from AAMs. So what stops them from mounting cheap rockets with multiple seekers for basically scanning purposes? Doesn't need Mach 4 capabilities, could easily stay transonic and trade speed for endurance. The goal isn't to kill F-35, merely to drive it to an area away from friendlies. If the F-35 can be spotted you greatly increase it's vulnerability and it allows you to take the offensive.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 04:51
by SpudmanWP
You need get within 10miles of an F-35 to see it.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 11:16
by element1loop
Is pervasive lSR and SA and comms making AEW&C, JSTARS, etc., more redundant anyway?

i.e. less high-value or critical from here?

Seems the whole strategy of taking down supports is a bit desperate and missing the point. That ship has sailed.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 11:33
by neptune
element1loop wrote:Is pervasive lSR and SA and comms making AEW&C, JSTARS, etc., more redundant anyway?

i.e. less high-value or critical from here?

Seems the whole strategy of taking down supports is a bit desperate and missing the point. That ship has sailed.


....MADL, ku-band is tight beam directional or "satcom"; AWACS radar range vs F-35 radar range at 200 miles forward. Same coverage? Is AWACS further back or CONUS?, as in no AWACS.
:)

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 13:06
by monkeypilot
In fact we are walking at a pretty fast pace towards a "demarialization" of AWAS into a network (with much fewer nodes) of assets (see F-35, Rafale F4, EFCAS etc.).

AWACS can (and have been) sneaked in, and still are very important and powerful for any modern airforce. For how long is another subject.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 14:28
by vilters
Clustering multiple fighters into a single dot is from the old school and "Top Gun" movie era.
Hiding below an airliner with an active Flight Plan has also been done.

But there is at least a good remark here too. :P

What's the future of AWACS (as we know it now) with the modern avionix in the newer fighters.
But then again, when they "grow" into full bore Command and Control centers as primary function?
They stay a "high value target" worth the risk to invent "out of the box" tactics.

Euh, Somebody got brown underpants along the way? => Stall speed of the F-16 at 120 kts? => Ahunm . . . . . .
What's on your wings? Bombs and tanks?

On such a mission, I"ll find me a block 10-15 at the most, have gun, drum, transponder and all other "dead" weight removed, and with a cg as far aft as possible. (A block 5 would be the lightest, but they have the small tails.)
Give some, take some.

The primary goal is to get the AWACS (or equivalent high value asset) . Getting home is optional.
That's what "thinking like a terrorist" is all about, and its completely outside of your "comfort zones".
Start thinking like a terrorist who's on a mission.

Sometimes, its hard to believe believe how conservative you guys are over here.
It's not behind a desk that you win a war, but by individual initiative and taking calculated risks from time to time.

On the ground we have suicide bombers who blow themselves up for whatever the reason they believe in.
In WW2 we got the Kamikaze pilots. Same thing, different tool.
You only have to get someone mad enouch to do it.

And what's more (again thinking like the "bad" guy).

You get twice the price money. The AWACS and the 72 virgins. :devil: (But you can put those on hold), because a good pilot will land.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 16:05
by XanderCrews
vilters wrote:
What's the future of AWACS (as we know it now) with the modern avionix in the newer fighters.
But then again, when they "grow" into full bore Command and Control centers as primary function?



Its actually becoming more decentralized, not less.

They stay a "high value target" worth the risk to invent "out of the box" tactics.


And your idea wouldnt work. no matter how many buzzwords and phrases you use. Maximize paradigms out of the box thinking!

Euh, Somebody got brown underpants along the way? => Stall speed of the F-16 at 120 kts? => Ahunm . . . . . .
What's on your wings? Bombs and tanks?


Missiles are on the wings, and lots of fuel.

On such a mission, I"ll find me a block 10-15 at the most, have gun, drum, transponder and all other "dead" weight removed, and with a cg as far aft as possible. (A block 5 would be the lightest, but they have the small tails.)
Give some, take some.


And it still won't be able to pull 100 knots.

Everytime you come up with some stupid scheme here, that makes you sound like a Teenager who thinks Xbox is real life, someone points out the probelems, then you double down.

Then you act like you are superior for thinking up something different that is not feasible. But its different!

Then people point out just how full of crap you are, and you back down until the next vilters idea crops up. You do it over and over, and crown yourself some deep thinker.

Is this what you need to do to feel special vilters? make up crap on the internet?

Image

Vilters anyone can think of unconventional tactics that dont work. thats easy.

The primary goal is to get the AWACS (or equivalent high value asset) . Getting home is optional.
That's what "thinking like a terrorist" is all about, and its completely outside of your "comfort zones".
Start thinking like a terrorist who's on a mission.


My comfort zone is actual phyics. my box is actual physics. No amount of Buzzword phrases (the irony of you using these phrases to be unique when I've been hearing "think like a terrorist" since 1999, is amazing where have you been the last 20 years boyo?)


Sometimes, its hard to believe believe how conservative you guys are over here.
It's not behind a desk that you win a war, but by individual initiative and taking calculated risks from time to time.


Hey Vilters Im a Marine, an infantry men, a disabled vet, and a veteran of the war on terror. Behind a desk?

Who do you think you are talking to Mr belgium air force in the 1980s??? You want to lecture me on terrorists?


Listen carefully. Just because you came up with an idea that is different, and we said it wouldn't work, doesn't mean we can't comprehend anything that is not in a manual, so stop acting like a snob, and don't insult people who actually served in real wars against real terrorists. You act like you are some brilliant misunderstood thinker. Youre not. Youre a dolt, who given the background you claim should know better.

I'm beginning to wonder if you have been lying about your creditionals completely. I just figured you were one of those guys they kept in a room full of computers, but I'm begining to think you werent even that.

On the ground we have suicide bombers who blow themselves up for whatever the reason they believe in.
In WW2 we got the Kamikaze pilots. Same thing, different tool.
You only have to get someone mad enouch to do it.

And what's more (again thinking like the "bad" guy).

You get twice the price money. The AWACS and the 72 virgins. :devil: (But you can put those on hold), because a good pilot will land.


LOL wow vilters its just amazing how full of it you really are. You realize there are people on this forum who have done war games and actually played as OPFOR/Terrorists? I have. Unconventionality is encouraged, but if you do silly stuff that doesn't work, you die easy and its bad training. No one learns that way.

We are actually trying to pull back all the "Think like a terrorist" mindset that has been dominating the military since 2001. WE are actaully trying to get back to conventional tactics. Weird things like combined arms operations against entrenched foes etc.

you don't kill an AWACs by crashing an F-16 into a train LOL

Don't be so "open minded" your brains fall out! Don't get it twisted vilters, You aren't some swashbuckling red force commander Van Riper disciple. Youre just an idiot who doesn't understand what a stall is.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 16:14
by monkeypilot
Name some, I'll wait. In fact I think there is only one:


Rafale C. Every show. F-18 probably also

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 16:16
by XanderCrews
monkeypilot wrote:
Name some, I'll wait. In fact I think there is only one:


Rafale C. Every show.



yep. Airshows.

F-18 probably also


Nope.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 01:51
by element1loop
monkeypilot wrote:In fact we are walking at a pretty fast pace towards a "demarialization" of AWAS into a network (with much fewer nodes) of assets (see F-35, Rafale F4, EFCAS etc.).

AWACS can (and have been) sneaked in, and still are very important and powerful for any modern airforce. For how long is another subject.


Yes, that's what I meant, a network conduit and network multifunction enabler (like so many others now, manned and unmanned, and changing fast) but foreseeably not so vital from say 2025 onwards.

Important, yes, but you can still dominate without it. Someone above, evoked the 1980s view that taking down the AEW&C would reduce fighter capability by 50% ... not anymore ... that ship sailed, that was my meaning.

Thus going after supports is desperate, misguided, not going to get disproportionate capability degradation in a battle. It will degrade, but not in a precipitous battle-winning way.

Thus not as critical, not as high-value in that sense, and you can operate efficently in battle without it, so is the baddie so well served, looking for results that way?

Nah.

______________________
As for the unrelated stuff about suicide tactics, these chaps are not exactly the brightest, best trained or most skilled, they are dumb bombs. Did the Rising Sun empire win doing that? It was desperation, one step above a scorched-earth tactial reteat. An 'airforce' that does stuff like that has already lost ... very desperate ... and is being lead by morons.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 15:34
by XanderCrews
Even if you lose A, A as in ONE. We fly more in. That's why we built more than one of them. If you fly them non stop they can be there in a half day from CONUS.

I'm a little amazed at the folks who talk about war with Russia or China and fret about individual losses. These wars would be massive. You can't expect to not take some hits and have set backs. Losing individual aircraft will be the least of our worries

And if it's a "smaller war" like say against Iran or NK, losing an AWACs also won't effect the outcome

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 16:22
by tailgate
Greets Xander, I agree with your assessment but also offer.......even if you were able to "take down" a AWACS/JSTARS, the war won't stop. Can't speak for the 35 but the 22 alone can act as a mini AWACS to a point. These platforms are not an end all/ be all. They make things a whole lot easier, but no means would strategic/tactical initiatives stop for any reason.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 16:54
by monkeypilot
tailgate wrote:Greets Xander, I agree with your assessment but also offer.......even if you were able to "take down" a AWACS/JSTARS, the war won't stop. Can't speak for the 35 but the 22 alone can act as a mini AWACS to a point. These platforms are not an end all/ be all. They make things a whole lot easier, but no means would strategic/tactical initiatives stop for any reason.


But how can F-22 assign targets and play mission commander role without L-16 emitting capability? I know the F-35 is MC qualified, but??? Or what do you mean by acting like a mini C2?

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 18:14
by tailgate
The F-22's ability to operate close to the battlefield gives the aircraft threat detection and identification capability comparative with the RC-135 Rivet Joint, and the ability to function as a "mini-AWACS", though the radar is less powerful than those of dedicated platforms. The F-22 can designate targets for allies, and determine whether two friendly aircraft are targeting the same aircraft. This radar system can sometimes identify targets "many times quicker than the AWACS".[119] The IEEE 1394B bus developed for the F-22 was derived from the commercial IEEE 1394 "FireWire" bus system.[134] In 2007, the F-22's radar was tested as a wireless data transceiver, transmitting data at 548 megabits per second and receiving at gigabit speed, far faster than the Link 16 system.



This is not "new" news. We successfully used this in the ME and elsewhere.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 19:20
by monkeypilot
tailgate wrote:The F-22's ability to operate close to the battlefield gives the aircraft threat detection and identification capability comparative with the RC-135 Rivet Joint, and the ability to function as a "mini-AWACS", though the radar is less powerful than those of dedicated platforms. The F-22 can designate targets for allies, and determine whether two friendly aircraft are targeting the same aircraft. This radar system can sometimes identify targets "many times quicker than the AWACS".[119] The IEEE 1394B bus developed for the F-22 was derived from the commercial IEEE 1394 "FireWire" bus system.[134] In 2007, the F-22's radar was tested as a wireless data transceiver, transmitting data at 548 megabits per second and receiving at gigabit speed, far faster than the Link 16 system.



This is not "new" news. We successfully used this in the ME and elsewhere.


Well a friend of mine told me after Trilat exercise (Langley) that F-22 had an awesome SA, even in its six. And that it used to stay at the the back of the courtyard "sending" Rafale or Typhoon on targets. So i guess F-22 can send a type of VMF via its radar? (Both Rafale and Typhoon can receive Jmessages)? Impressive! Thank you so much i was really wondering how they managed to transmit the relevant data. Determine if two allies are targeting the same target is done via L16 i guess?
Thanks again for clarification!

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 22 Jan 2018, 00:07
by popcorn
In a Northern Edge in Alaska LFE more than a decade back the Raptor proved it's usefulness in detecting threats using terrain for cover that were hidden from AWACS radar.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 22 Jan 2018, 04:11
by wrightwing
monkeypilot wrote:
tailgate wrote:Greets Xander, I agree with your assessment but also offer.......even if you were able to "take down" a AWACS/JSTARS, the war won't stop. Can't speak for the 35 but the 22 alone can act as a mini AWACS to a point. These platforms are not an end all/ be all. They make things a whole lot easier, but no means would strategic/tactical initiatives stop for any reason.


But how can F-22 assign targets and play mission commander role without L-16 emitting capability? I know the F-35 is MC qualified, but??? Or what do you mean by acting like a mini C2?

Voice and BACN.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 14:52
by markithere
Since wireless network printers are not and don’t need to be hack proof ( maybe they do need to be hack proof ) then I would think using the 4 ship flight wing spare computational power might be able to bruit force hack into the targeted network and print from the printers. The F-35 could then send pages to print for a desired effect. What that might be the situation would determine. Maybe as a message to someone? Or to put fear into recipients? My point is this. If you have spare cpu cycles either single ship or 4 ship combined cpu cycles then why not have the app available for this or other network related attacks or control available?

While you are in the printer/copier you could simultaneously upload, if sensors are sensitive enough, the images of all or targeted parts of documents ever printed from that printer/copier to the plane.

If sensors are not that sensitive you could launch a WiFi configured miniature drone to land on target building and boost the signal.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 01:00
by wrightwing
You don't need a 4 ship, to introduce malware in an electronic attack.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 03:30
by element1loop
markithere wrote:Since wireless network printers are not and don’t need to be hack proof ( maybe they do need to be hack proof ) then I would think using the 4 ship flight wing spare computational power might be able to bruit force hack into the targeted network and print from the printers.


Or take just down an electrical substation and turn everything off.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2018, 17:52
by markithere
I am not sure how useful this would be however here it is. If we know the amount of certain types of weapons an enemy has would there be any benefit in showing it on the screen in such away as if they have 10 AAA in inventory and the plane spots 6 of them could there be a benefit for the pilot knowing that he can target and destroy 60% of the enemy’s resources? Would seeing this have helped with tactics for any of you squadron commanders of flight wings? Forgive me if I stated the wing structure incorrectly. Now if you think they have 10 but the sensors show 15 would knowing this or seeing this discrepancy help commanders?

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2018, 23:14
by popcorn
markithere wrote:I am not sure how useful this would be however here it is. If we know the amount of certain types of weapons an enemy has would there be any benefit in showing it on the screen in such away as if they have 10 AAA in inventory and the plane spots 6 of them could there be a benefit for the pilot knowing that he can target and destroy 60% of the enemy’s resources? Would seeing this have helped with tactics for any of you squadron commanders of flight wings? Forgive me if I stated the wing structure incorrectly. Now if you think they have 10 but the sensors show 15 would knowing this or seeing this discrepancy help commanders?

I think it would be more useful knowing the bad guys, regardless of how many there are and how many AAMs they may have, are unlikely to even detect a 5gen a/c, let alone attack it.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2018, 01:21
by Dragon029
Slightly different idea: If the radar or AEOTS could one day not only autonomously determine aircraft type, but also their loadout, that would benefit the pilot in deciding whether it would be wise to advance to WVR, or whether an aircraft poses a real danger to ground forces.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2019, 20:26
by markithere
markithere wrote:You could use the DAS system from two planes flying in formation to create a stereoscopic image of the surrounding area. At the same time increase the resolution capability to twice what is achieved by a single plane. Similar to cameras that take and stitch together multiple images to create a super hires image. Doing this will increase what is possible with more than one plane. Google superresolution photos with photoshop for more on this.b

Like this

http://gigapan.com/gigapans/6790



http://gigapan.com

Edited for new working link

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2019, 00:57
by element1loop
markithere wrote:
http://gigapan.com

Edited for new working link


Tactically why bother? All you need is PID and a continuous target-grade vector that's fed to weapons and to a network. EOTS is already a telescopic video camera with a high-res sensor for PID, and also for seeing what the bandit carries from BVR radius. Distributed wingmen will get other angles as they flank. Plus the DAS is already a constantly scanning search-system that 'stitches' a data picture of PIDs and vectors, A2A and A2G, over terrain and sky imagery. At that point it's the data you'd want, the terrain and sky imagery is then just for proper SA and orientation, to plan and execute the action. So why do you want more image details than you need, or can even assimilate, without just distracting yourself (and thus losing some SA in the process)?

What would actually be better than that is an upgraded DAS, and an upgraded EOTS, with improved algos to operate them, and more computer power for much better SA radius, through the systems to be able to cope with all the extra contacts and updating and ranging tasks within the resulting much larger volume of airspace to be addressed by each 5th-gen aloft, i.e. what's already coming within the Block 4 upgrade period.

Which means a flight's physical distribution may be even more open, SA that much better, using aggressive tactics that would be all the more dominant even compared to the FOC 3F version.

As for 3D imagery, SAR can generate that at lower-res already. But do you need that within a moving tactical cockpit, with the DAS view in the helmet which is providing an actual 'stitched' real-time 3D world view?

What is needed much more in the tactical sense is a fused multi-spectral high-res close-up, but from stand-off radius, to confirm that the selected target is the right target, and also not just a clever decoy.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 18:57
by markithere
With the computer and MADL system code can be written so that link 16 can be used by aircraft in full stealth mode. In the area where ful stealth is needed they can send data or message using link 16 overlay. The MADL system actually transmits it and it will auto pass that information from f-35 to f-35 till it is in an area rearage no longer requiring stealth and that f-35 auto sends the message via link 16. They can call it stealth 16. This can be auto used when the plane goes into communication stealthed mode. The pilot just uses link 16 like he would normally. The planes would take care of the rest. Or he could simply select stealth 16 and initiate the MADL system that way keeping him stealthed by active choice in a non stealth needed area.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 19:07
by steve2267
What about SAT16?

As they, or when they implement satellite link... I presume they are going to implement an LPI waveform to/from the satellites. Then you can just encode your Link16 to the satellite, and it will be automagically routed to whoever needs it... either via other satellites, or to other aircraft for relay, maybe even a high flying UAV (Global Hawk or ?) with the necessary radio links, stealthy or not, as required.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 19:10
by markithere
steve2267 wrote:What about SAT16?

As they, or when they implement satellite link... I presume they are going to implement an LPI waveform to/from the satellites. Then you can just encode your Link16 to the satellite, and it will be automagically routed to whoever needs it... either via other satellites, or to other aircraft for relay, maybe even a high flying UAV (Global Hawk or ?) with the necessary radio links, stealthy or not, as required.



Add that in too. Why? Because the more roads available means more targets the enemy needs to try to disrupt.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2019, 19:00
by doge
About the how to counter with Chinese and Russian stealth fighters, the name of F-35 was raised. 8)
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... cific.aspx
Q&A: Toward a Seamless Pacific
OCTOBER 2019 JOHN A. TIRPAK
An exclusive interview with PACAF Commander Gen. Charles Q. Brown Jr.
Pacific Air Forces Commander Gen. Charles Q. Brown Jr. spoke with Editorial Director John A. Tirpak on Sept. 3 about the challenges of operating in the Pacific Theater, deterring China and Russia, a new force dispersal strategy, and lines of responsibility between regional commands. (The conversation has been edited for length and clarity).


Q. How do you counter the stealth capabilities China and Russia are beginning to field?

A. Infrared search and track is one. The AIM-260 missile with increased ranges is good. But it’s also how I take information off an F-35 and push it to my other assets or platforms.

We’re using the Loyal Wingman concept and others to advance our thinking on how we would employ. Because, again, I want to create dilemmas.

It’s not just the F-35 or F-22 or B-2 or B-21, it’s how do we bring the team together so that our adversary has to consider all the different platforms. And we have to take advantage of those capabilities today, and not just hope [a conflict] will kick off in the future. Because it could kick off sooner than later.  

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 21 Oct 2019, 15:04
by doge
I'm wondering where to post, so I will post here.
Captain Max McCoy talks about the fifth generation. 8)
https://sldinfo.com/2019/10/nas-lemoore ... max-mccoy/
NAS Lemoore and the F-35 C: The Perspective of Captain Max McCoy
10/20/2019
In an interview with VADM Miller earlier this month in San Diego, the F-35C Wing Commander joined by phone and participated in the interview. And he provided an update on the F-35C in the Carrier Air Wing and its impact.

Captain Max McCoy highlighted what one might call the forcing function of the F-35 and of the F-35 aviators upon the training dynamic.

“We are teaching F-35C pilots to be wingmen, but training them to think like mission commanders.

“F-35C provides more situational awareness than ever before and pilots must be able to influence the battlespace both kinetically and non-kinetically.

“The pilot must interpret cockpit information and determine the best means to ensure mission success either through his own actions or by networking to a distributed force.”

They need to think like mission commanders, in which they are operating in terms of both leveraging and contributing to the networked force.

This means that the skill sets being learned are not the classic TTPs for a combat pilot but are focused on learning how to empower and leverage an integrated force.

“Training can no longer focus solely on T/M/S capabilities.

“Training has to develop young aviators who appreciate their role within a larger maneuver/combat element.

“Specifically, how does F-35C complement 4th generation capabilities within the Carrier Air Wing and surface combatants distributed within the Carrier Strike Group?

“It is no longer about fighting as a section or division of fighter aircraft.

“We only win if we fight as an interoperable, networked, and distributed force.

“We are still learning and incorporating 5th generation capability into the Navy.

“Our efforts must be calculated and measured but push beyond historical comfort zones.

“We must embrace what is new and redefine what is basic warfighting capability.

“This starts with the Fleet Replacement Squadron (FRS) and Air Combat Training Continuum (ACTC) syllabi.

“We must make integrated training a key component of a pilot’s progression from FRS graduate to mission commander. F-35C is an enabler, if and only if, we train our pilots to think well beyond the limits of their cockpit and reach of an individual aircraft’s weapons system”.

They are learning how to operate as distributed force packages.

The slideshow highlights photos from Nov. 16, 2018 of F-35C Lightning II fighter jets, attached to the “Argonauts” of Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 147, flying .

VFA-147 is the first U.S. Navy Operational F-35C squadron based out of Naval Air Station (NAS) Lemoore. Commander, Joint Strike Fighter Wing, headquartered at NAS Lemoore, ensures that each F-35C squadron is fully combat-ready to conduct carrier-based, all-weather, attack, fighter and support missions for Commander, Naval Air Forces.

With its stealth technology, advanced sensors, weapons capacity and range, the F-35C will be the first 5th generation aircraft operated from an aircraft carrier.

(U.S. Navy photo by Chief Mass Communication Specialist Shannon E. Renfroe/Released)

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 21 Oct 2019, 15:05
by doge
Mr.Billie Flynn talked about the 5th Gen at the Aeronautical Society of South Africa Annual Conference 2019. 8)
https://www.engineeringnews.co.za/artic ... 2019-10-16
Advanced computer games generation setting new fighter pilot standards
16TH OCTOBER 2019 BY: REBECCA CAMPBELL
Young pilots, straight out of flight school, are adapting much more rapidly to the latest, most high-technology, fighter jets, known as Fifth Generation (5th Gen) designs, than veteran fighter pilots with many years' experience. This was highlighted by Lockheed Martin F-35 test pilot Billie Flynn on the first day of the 2019 Aeronautical Society of South Africa conference, in Pretoria on Wednesday.

There are currently only two 5th Gen fighter types in operational service today, all American designs. They are the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor supersonic air dominance fighter, and the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II multirole fighter. The best known (but by no means only) characteristic of 5th Gen combat aircraft is their use of very low visibility technologies -- popularly called stealth.

They also make use of advanced avionics, cockpits and flying helmets. Flying such aircraft is very different to flying 4th generation fighters. Flynn described the F-35 as being, "by any standard, supremely advanced". While the F-22 is operated only by the US, the F-35 is already in operational service with eight nations, while more have it on order.

The young people now graduating as fighter pilots in these eight countries have grown up with digital technology, computers, the Internet, and complex computer games. This experience is proving invaluable in mastering the advanced systems of the F-35.

These young pilots are proving to be much better at flying and fighting the F-35 than veteran pilots are. "They are quicker, more adaptable, than we would give them credit for," he highlighted.

As a result, the US Marine Corps has changed its fighter pilot training syllabus. The effect is to remove the traditional strict tactical hierarchy of flight leader, section leader, and (junior) wingmen (one wingman for each of the leaders). The young (formerly "junior") pilots are much more familiar with the technological concepts employed by the F-35 than the older pilots are. Thus, the younger pilots have valuable inputs to make during an operation, and the more senior pilots have to take them seriously. The US Air Force is following suit.

Moreover, these young pilots are actively pushing the development of the F-35's systems, Flynn reported. They are demanding more and more functionality from the aircraft's systems.

https://www.engineeringnews.co.za/artic ... 2019-10-17
The revolutionary fighter changing air warfare
17TH OCTOBER 2019 BY: REBECCA CAMPBELL
Fifth generation (5th Gen) combat aircraft are totally transforming the nature of air combat, Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II test pilot Billie Flynn has told the 2019 Aeronautical Society of South Africa conference, in Pretoria. The F-35 multirole fighter is the second 5th Gen combat aircraft to enter service, following the F-22 Raptor air dominance fighter (which is also a Lockheed Martin product).

While the F-22 is operated only by the US Air Force, the F-35 is already operated by eight countries, and has been ordered by more. The Lightning II has flown combat missions in the Middle East and South West Asia.

Flynn explained that, while 5th Gen fighters employ very low observable (popularly called stealth) technologies, they are characterised by much more than stealth. They also possess advanced multi spectral sensors, sensor fusion, network enabled operations capability, and are armed with very advanced precision-guided munitions.

"Integrated stealth [is] key to 5th Gen capability," he stressed. This includes the capability to execute a full mission using only internal fuel tanks, engine inlets that are shaped to hide the engine, having all panel and airframe section edges carefully aligned to prevent radar reflections from (for example) the edges of maintenance access panels, and engine nozzles designed to reduce the engine heat plume behind the aircraft, thereby reducing the effectiveness of hostile infrared sensors.

They also have embedded antennas (also reducing radar reflectivity) and can carry out a full combat mission using only internally-carried weapons. (The F-35 is configured so that, once it has gained air superiority, and stealth is no longer required, it can also carry unstealthy external weapons.)

They are also highly automated, with many routine functions controlled by computers, without input from the pilot. Consequently, the pilot can focus not on flying the plane, but "fighting the plane" -- that is, using it as a weapons system.

Modern combat pilots are inundated with lots of data, from their different aircraft sensors, through data links from other aircraft (or ships, or ground stations) and over the radio. "At some point, the human can't do it all," highlighted Flynn.

With sensor fusion, the 5th Gen fighter pilot is given a single, integrated, picture of what is going on around him/her in the air combat volume he/she is operating in. "The human in the F-22 does not operate a sensor," he points out. The computers do. "The F-22 gave us confidence in what sensor fusion is meant to be."

Sensor fusion allows F-35s to fly in extremely loose formations. Whereas, with previous generation fighters, the two aircraft that formed the basic air combat tactical formation would typically fly some 9 000 feet (about 900 m) apart, with a pair of F-35s the separation distance can be as much as 30 miles (some 48 km) -- yet they still are a formation, thanks to their data exchange capabilities.

The F-35 can also gather and redistribute the data its systems have collected to other aircraft and platforms. It can thus also carry out intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance missions.

The aircraft is also designed to be continually upgraded. Upgrades can include new iterations of software, the fitting of new systems, and the integration of new weapons. Work is currently being done on increasing the capacity of the internal weapons bays.

There are three versions of the F-35. The F-35A is a land-based, conventional take-off and landing aircraft, for use by air forces. The F-35B is a short take-off and vertical landing aircraft, intended for use by the US Marine Corps, several navies and some air forces. The F-35C is the version for the US Navy, designed to operate off conventionally configured aircraft carriers (fitted with catapults to launch aircraft and arrestor wires to catch landing aircraft).

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/aerospace/ ... onference/
Innovation and passion under the spotlight at Aeronautical Society Conference
Written by Jonathan Katzenellenbogen/Guy Martin -18th Oct 2019
Chief Test Pilots from Lockheed Martin and Boeing gave keynote addresses on the first day of the conference on 15 October and also touched on innovation and technical progress. Billie Flynn, the Senior F-35 Test Pilot at Lockheed Martin, described how in the face of much public scepticism about the cost and capabilities of the most advanced and costly fighter project ever, as well as setbacks, credibility had been restored. Mitigating risks in flying the aircraft, through hours of work on a simulator to establish the best routines in the event of multiple failures and the use of experienced “Mother Hens” for pilot guidance was key to establishing safety and changing the critical conversation about the plane, he said.

Among the key capabilities that make the F-35 a game changer is “sensor fusion” and stealth, according to Flynn. The ability of the F-35 to integrate into a wider network of fighters and draw information from a range of sources as well as its stealth has meant a fundamental change in fighter aircraft procedures. Sensor fusion has reduced the pilot workload and allowed far better focus on threats.

The extensive use of algorithms for the operation of the F-35 has meant that older and more experienced pilots have had to adapt to a very different environment. Youngsters with a little over 100 hours in flying time have often showed themselves to be more capable F-35 pilots because of their ability to adapt and their deep familiarity with screen-based systems. Younger pilots are now demanding more information and more screens, he said.

The new technology has also brought about changes in the command structure in the air. Due to messaging with visual representation on screens and helmet displays, there is little use of radio, and pilots are afforded far greater independence and decision-making in the air.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 Dec 2019, 06:59
by doge
I found a Polish military magazine. Can read free. 8) In 2016, they interviewed Mr.Billie Flynn.
List: https://fragoutmag.com/archive-issues/ (As far as I could see, only No.13 and No.27 were written long articles about F-35.)
No.13 https://fragout.uberflip.com/i/773724-f ... zine-13/95
FO: How many years you have spent in the aviation?
BF: I have been flying military fighter jets since 1981…. 35 years. I have more than 5000 flight hours in more than 80 different aircraft.

FO: What was your career path before you became a test pilot?
BF: My father was a fighter pilot in the RCAF. He flew F-86’s in Germany for the RCAF and Luftwaffe, plus CF100s and CF-101s. I attended the Royal Military College and then joined the Canadian Air Force, first as a fighter pilot and then later trained as a test pilot at the United States Naval Test Pilot School.

FO: How many different types of aircraft are you flying?
BF: Presently I fly exclusively the F-35, all three variants because there is so much flying for us, I choose not to fly the F-16 or F-18 as a second aircraft.

FO: How different is the F-35 from the jets you have been flying before?
BF: The F-35 is a 5thGeneration fighter is far more than just a flying machine. The systems on-board are vastly more sophisticated than any legacy fighter that I have known. So flying the F-35, at the very leading edge of technology development is a very technically exciting task.

FO: What are the main differences between the various versions of the F-35?
BF: Very little difference between each model. They only differ in takeoff and landing characteristics and even then, they are not much different.

FO: We had the opportunity to “fly” on the F-35 simulator - flying the real aircraft is much different than simulated
BF: The simulator flies very much like the real airplane. The F-35 is a remarkably easy aircraft to operate as a pilot because the true task for our pilots is to manage the systems and the information presented on the touch screens in front of them in the cockpit.

FO: How would you compare F-35 to other advanced military fighters?
BF: It will be decades until foreign powers can build an aircraft that will match the capability of the F-35. It eclipses all other flying machines. Legacy 4th generation fighters in the West cannot match the capabilities of the F-35 even today.

FO: Earlier you have been flying as F-16 pilot. Those fighters are now used by Polish Armed Forces. Can we even compare them with the F-35A?
BF: The F-16 is a magnificent fighter jet. I have 2000 flying hours in every model of the F-16 ever made. However the F-35 is a new generation of fighter and cannot be compared directly with the F-16 as a 4th generation fighter.

FO: You have also been flying CF-18 Hornet, could you compare this aircraft with F-35C?
BF: The CF-18 was a great jet 35 years ago and even 15 years ago when I was a squadron commander and flew it in combat over Kosovo and Serbia. I flew it 33 year ago for the first time; it is a 4th Generation fighter and cannot match the surface-to-air and the air-to-air threats of the future.

FO: We had impression that the pilot of F-35 (frankly speaking) operates in total VR. What is the real impact on flying this fighter?
BF: VR does not exist for the fighter pilot yet. But systems like sensor fusion and the Distributed Aperture System that feeds imagery into our F-35 helmet borders on virtual reality technologies. I look forward to our evolving technologies as time goes on for the F-35.

FO: F-35 is quite expensive piece of technology. Do you see potential for future procurement by other countries which currently have US fighters?
BF: The price of a F-35 continues to drop and we’re confident that by the end of the decade a F-35A model will be the same or less than any 4th Generation fighter. Remember, the F-35 has the most advanced technology, stealth and 5th generation sensor fusion. It seems very clear that investing in the F-35 with 40 years of development and enhancements ahead of it would be the smartest investment for our ally militaries.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2020, 06:12
by steve2267
An article I read recently stated that in November 2019, 96% of Iran was cut off from the Internet for 2-3 days -- the Iranian government cut that nation off from the rest of the world. Citizens were up in arms, figuratively, protesting the high prices of fuel, milk, eggs and other basic staples and the culpability of the Iranian government. Apparently many of the protesters were organizing by way of the Internet, so the government shut down access to the Internet.

The F-35 is really good at sniffing out RF signals, IR returns, fusing them and identifying targets -- then blowing those targets up or passing on the information. I suppose it might be used to sniff out networks. It's EW prowess has been hinted at obliquely about being able to penetrate networks etc. But I don't want to get this thread locked.

Rather... I am wondering if there could be some way the F-35 could be used in an unconventional manner to establish an ALTERNATE Internet gateway to or for Iranian dissidents?

On the one hand, the simplest (yeah, not so simple) idea is to orbit an F-35 around an area and act like a giant WiFi router in the sky. Except... Laptops etc connect to WiFi in terms of feet or yards, maybe tens of yards or hundreds of feet... but no laptop is going to get on some WiFi router overhead at 20,000 or 30,000ft...

Then I got to thinking that maybe MALD-X's could be configured with lots of fuel and a relatively simple electronics payload. But a MALD-J has at most 90 minutes endurance. And how low could a MALD orbit? Seems like another idea dead end...

To establish a rebel Internet... you need to create a network of routers on the ground, and at some multiples of points those routers would need to uplink to an orbiting router in the sky. These uplinks would be more along the lines of high powered cellular equipment -- or probably just specialized stuff. But the AutoBots are not yet here, so pooping self-deploying drones that can magically land on rooftops, deploy solar arrays and start offering WiFi to compete with the corner gummint coffee shop WiFi is not yet here... So you're gonna need boots on the ground. I'm back to Special Forces -- Green Beret types.

I suppose F-35's could be rigged to re-supply small GB Alpha Teams via high-speed, stealthy parachute drops... A couple tons of supplies could be pretty slick. But teams retrieving parachutes seems very risky -- easy for enema ground elements to swoop in and round up the Alphas.

Popping a couple MALD-like or JSOW-ER-like aero vehicles rigged for resupply rather than to go KABOOM, could be an option. They would already have the separation testing and integration completed...

I suppose, theoretically, it might be possible for something like an F-35 to conduct an EW attack and somehow inject some code into the Iranian network which might open some backdoors so NSA types could get in and take over the Iranian network... BUT, if the Iranians get wind of that... they can still just physically shut the whole shebang down like they did last November, then your back to SquareOne.

A mini V-247 drone that could get dropped out of of a Lightning Weps-bay and then precisely rendezvous with ground elements could potentially be useful... but am starting to get into really 007 stuff (or at least Skunk Works does not exist type stuff).

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2020, 06:30
by zhangmdev
Unrestricted Internet access is better served by satellites. Broadband via LEO constellation is closer to reality than ever. SpaceX just launched another 60 Starlink satellites today.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2020, 07:22
by steve2267
zhangmdev wrote:Unrestricted Internet access is better served by satellites. Broadband via LEO constellation is closer to reality than ever. SpaceX just launched another 60 Starlink satellites today.


Well... duh. Thanks for bringing me back to reality... Nevermind. Carryon.