F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

[XanderCrews]

Artillery FO

[monkeypilot]

Could happen with SU35/SKAT no? (similar concept as loyal wingman?)

[SpudmanWP]

The problem with the SU35/SKAT combo is that the SU35 is not VLO and its datalinks are not LPD/LPI (ie not directional).

Basically it would be advertising its presence every time it communicated with its "wingman".

[monkeypilot]

It doses not change the concept doese it? (providing a datalink) Using a ultra VLO UCLASS as a scout within a 4th Gen patrol.

[SpudmanWP]

SKAT does have the senors to keep the 4th gen asset far enough away to be safe from a full 5th gen force. It's also subsonic only. Another problem is that with the SU35 being so far back necessitates very large AAMs which are not designed with endame maneuverability to take on fighters, but are designed to attack slow & lumbering assets like IFR, ISR, AWACS, etc.

Use some other UCAV designed for the role of a VLO escort then maybe, but the UCAV itself would need to be armed.

[vilters]

Russian tactics could repeat history.
What did the Germans say in WW2?
Anybody Remember?
"Forget the fighters", go for the bombers. That's what they said.

Well, in modern times?

Russians (or Chinese for that matter) => Forget the fighters.
(there's NO way to get F-35 and F-22 with what you have right now.)

Go for the tankers, AWACS, Command and Control.
Without their support, the western Fighters loose half their combat value.

[madrat]

The one issue I fear is bum rushing an area with sensor-laden rockets to test for the presence of an F-35. If they can basically ping one, they can concentrate firepower on an isolated member. It doesn't have to be efficient cost-wise, just attrition-wise. This really is mainly a risk if an airspace can be swarmed with some sort of effective package with respect to an intended mission.

[SpudmanWP]

Go for the tankers, AWACS, Command and Control.
Without their support, the western Fighters loose half their combat value.

Which is one of the drivers that dictated the F-35's massive internal fuel load.

The larger fuel load means that the tankers can stay further back, well out of fighter range.

The one issue I fear is bum rushing an area with sensor-laden rockets to test for the presence of an F-35.

??

The killbox to detect a VLO fighter with an AAM sized seeker is extremely small. Don't forget, if you think that the F-35 is within your weapon's range, then you are within the F-35's weapon range too.

[tailgate]

Russian tactics could repeat history.
What did the Germans say in WW2?
Anybody Remember?
"Forget the fighters", go for the bombers. That's what they said.

Well, in modern times?

Russians (or Chinese for that matter) => Forget the fighters.
(there's NO way to get F-35 and F-22 with what you have right now.)

Go for the tankers, AWACS, Command and Control.
Without their support, the western Fighters loose half their combat value.

I see your point.....but the USAF , and all others for that matter, put A LOT of emphasis on HAVCAP capability. Most of my time in ODS was HAVCAP. Chinese and Russians cannot match our capacity to put supporting assets out there so this won’t happen. No driver out there is going go chasing around after tankers, AWACS , etc. you will quickly become priority number uno. The shitstorm coming your way would be interesting to watch.

[monkeypilot]

Isn't that precisely why cjinese and russians are working on very long range missiles?

[XanderCrews]

Russian tactics could repeat history.
What did the Germans say in WW2?
Anybody Remember?
"Forget the fighters", go for the bombers. That's what they said.

How'd that work out for them?

Well, in modern times?

Russians (or Chinese for that matter) => Forget the fighters.
(there's NO way to get F-35 and F-22 with what you have right now.)

Go for the tankers, AWACS, Command and Control.
Without their support, the western Fighters loose half their combat value.

People have been saying this since the 1980s vilters. Once again you are not special.

Turns out it's really not easy to do either. Your flinging fighters specifically at systems that are designed to absorb, manage and destroy large amounts of enemy fighters.

Your plan is as brilliant as saying you should charge the machine guns, since trenches are more vulnerable without them. True, but it's also fine with the machine gunners. Burn out their barrels!

[XanderCrews]

Russian tactics could repeat history.
What did the Germans say in WW2?
Anybody Remember?
"Forget the fighters", go for the bombers. That's what they said.

Well, in modern times?

Russians (or Chinese for that matter) => Forget the fighters.
(there's NO way to get F-35 and F-22 with what you have right now.)

Go for the tankers, AWACS, Command and Control.
Without their support, the western Fighters loose half their combat value.

I see your point.....but the USAF , and all others for that matter, put A LOT of emphasis on HAVCAP capability. Most of my time in ODS was HAVCAP. Chinese and Russians cannot match our capacity to put supporting assets out there so this won’t happen. No driver out there is going go chasing around after tankers, AWACS , etc. you will quickly become priority number uno. The shitstorm coming your way would be interesting to watch.

Yep. How does one sneak up on AWACs? And when the AWACs starts not running but running toward and leading the enemy to the closest batch of fighters, how well does that work out?

[vilters]

Nothing simpler then to sneak to an AWACS when you more or less know where it's gonna be.

Why does nobody think outside of the box anymore?????

Think.
it is dead simple to get to an AWACS or ANY other plane.
But you have to think outside of the box.

PS : it is even simpler when they fly a steady patrol route.
Then just let him come into YOUR firing range. Now THAT's what I call having FUN.

Think outside of the box.

Got it yet?

No?

Still no go?

You"ll find me at 100 kts and 100Ft above a train doing also 100 kts.

Yes, yes, he did see the train coming, then removed the ground "clutter" (and me) LOL, LOL, LOL..
If you are not comfortable at 100 ft and 100kts, you"r in the wrong plane for the mission.

When In range?
Burner.
Nose up.
FIRE.

Dive for the next train to get outa there. In some countries you can take the highway and equalize speed.
Anyway, they"ll have a hard time finding a firing solution against all the ground clutter on the way out.
And if it gets too hot?
Throttle ide, gear down, land, walk away.

A "high value asset" is worth taking the airplane gamble, and the risk for the pilot is minimal.

[SpudmanWP]

You are assuming that the AWACS will let itself get to your weapon range instead of just vectoring a 5th gen asset to take you out.

[vilters]

The AWACS did see the train coming,
Then removed the ground clutter (and me).

I just had to wait for the right moment.