Sharp Shooting Analysis (F-35 Ammo)

F-35 Armament, fuel tanks, internal and external hardpoints, loadouts, and other stores.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post11 Jul 2014, 17:01

FORGING AHEAD
July 2014 Mark Ayton, AIR International F-35 Special Edition

"...Norwegian Specific Requirements
Norway has three specific requirements for its F-35s: a long-range stand-off strike capability, ammunition to suit all mission sets and a drag chute to slow the aircraft down after landing on an icy or snowy runway. The Norwegian F-35 Programme Office has selected the Joint Strike Missile (JSM), PGU-48 APEX ammunition and a bespoke drag chute to meet all of its needs....

...The former F-16 pilot explained the different ammunition currently available: “There are high explosive rounds which are effective against one type of target, and do not have any armour-piercing capability, and there are cold armour-piercing rounds which use a heavy metal type penetrator. NAMMO [a state-owned company shared partly with the Finnish Government] came up with a concept to combine the two characteristics into one ammunition type. The 25mm PGU-48 APEX round is designed for the F-35’s internally-mounted four-barrel GAU-22/A cannon which provides greater range and more accuracy than the ammunition currently used by the M61 Vulcan cannon fitted to Norway’s F-16s. To meet the operational requirement of the F-35 the APEX ammunition must be able to penetrate armoured, semi-armoured and soft shell targets, and have an explosive capability against different types of land and air targets.

“It has a tungsten carbide penetrator a small warhead and a base bleed on its aft end to give tracer effect which is important in some missions. For example, when you are flying an air policing mission you might need to divert an aircraft. If after completing all of the internationally recognised signals the aircraft doesn’t respond, you may need to fire warning shots. Well, without tracer they won’t be visible,” explained the Colonel.

The base bleed or tracer function gives better aero dynamic performance which maintains the trajectory speed for longer and gives range.
Live weapon testing of the APEX ammunition will be completed in 2017 using an F-35A configured to Block 3 standard.

Lt Col Fongen told AIR International: “From an operational perspective I’m in no doubt that the APEX ammunition will suit most missions because it can be used against a wide variety of targets. NAMMO is also producing a training round called RRR (reduced ricochet risk) but intends to apply the RRR concept into 25mm cold ammunition. It’s manufactured in a way that it will crack and disintegrate upon impact to avoid the potential of rounds hitting the aircraft during strafing.”

Source: AIR International F-35 Special Edition July 2014
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Unread post12 Jul 2014, 18:19

On previous page was a link: https://share.sandia.gov/news/resources ... 8FtzZB-8kI Sandia’s self-guided bullet prototype can hit target a mile away 30 Jan 2012
EXACTO Demonstrates First-Ever Guided .50-Caliber Bullets
Uploaded on Jul 2, 2014 DARPA Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency

"DARPA's Extreme Accuracy Tasked Ordnance (EXACTO) program recently conducted the first successful live-fire tests demonstrating in-flight guidance of .50-caliber bullets. This video shows EXACTO rounds maneuvering in flight to hit targets that are offset from where the sniper rifle is initially aimed. EXACTO's specially designed ammunition and real-time optical guidance system help track and direct projectiles to their targets by compensating for weather, wind, target movement and other factors that could impede successful aim.

The EXACTO program is developing new approaches and advanced capabilities to improve the range and accuracy of sniper systems beyond the current state of the art. For more information, please visit the program page at: http://go.usa.gov/XmSG.
OR

Source: http://www.darpa.mil/NewsEvents/Release ... 7/10a.aspx [/quote]

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popcorn

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Unread post12 Jul 2014, 23:11

Wow..a.50-caliber missile.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post13 Jul 2014, 05:01

popcorn wrote:Wow..a.50-caliber missile.


If we can mass produce this with the F-35 ammo, we just effectively shot up the effective kill ratio of the guns.

All you have to do is make sure to have the computer point the IR laser onto the center mass of the aircraft while the gun shoots a few rounds.

Ergo minimizing rounds spent.

On top of that, add in polymer casings for the 25mm rounds, you have a significant weight savings.


Go technology.

=D
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Unread post13 Jul 2014, 14:36

This brings up an interesting point: if you move to guided ammunition, would it be advantageous to also move to a single barrel gun? How about larger ammunition?
Though, chances are, it would be more useful for a helicopter gunship than a fighter.
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Unread post28 Nov 2014, 13:13

Nammo receives contract to prepare integration of APEX ammunition for F-35 Lightning II

RAUFOSS, Norway, Nov. 26, 2014 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- The Nammo Group has signed a contract with the Norwegian Armed Forces to provide services and supplies to prepare the integration of the 25 mm APEX next-generation multi-role ammunition for the F-35A

APEX - Unique Ammunition  
APEX is the next generation fighter ammunition with unique capabilities to defoped for a limited range of targets. The development of APEX ammunition positions Nammo as a supplier of munitions for the F-35 fighter aircraft, as it meets the F-35 multi-role require­ments.Nammo receives contract to prepare integration of APEX ammunition for F-35 Lightning II


https://globenewswire.com/news-release/ ... ng-II.html
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post12 Dec 2014, 10:35

popcorn wrote:Nammo receives contract to prepare integration of APEX ammunition for F-35 Lightning II

RAUFOSS, Norway, Nov. 26, 2014 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- The Nammo Group has signed a contract with the Norwegian Armed Forces to provide services and supplies to prepare the integration of the 25 mm APEX next-generation multi-role ammunition for the F-35A

APEX - Unique Ammunition  
APEX is the next generation fighter ammunition with unique capabilities to defoped for a limited range of targets. The development of APEX ammunition positions Nammo as a supplier of munitions for the F-35 fighter aircraft, as it meets the F-35 multi-role require­ments.Nammo receives contract to prepare integration of APEX ammunition for F-35 Lightning II


https://globenewswire.com/news-release/ ... ng-II.html


I just saw a video about this round on the American History Channel. Talk about impressive! As a matter of fact in one of the tests. It cut through 2 inch Armor Plate like a Knife through Butter! Yet, the same round can still pierce the skin on an aircraft and explode inside doing devastating damage in the process.

If, I find the video I'll post it..... :wink:
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Unread post18 Apr 2015, 01:45

Although JSM mentioned this article here because of the NAMMO AMMO...
Bogdan Praises Norwegian F-35 Weapons
17 Apr 2015 Aaron Mehta

"WASHINGTON — The head of the F-35 joint program office praised on Friday a pair of munitions developed by Norway, despite reluctance from the Pentagon to purchase the weaponry.

Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan praised the Joint Strike Missile (JSM), developed by Kongsberg, and the Nammo-designed APEX ammunition during a one-day summit here that was organized to support the US-Norwegian military alliance.

During his speech, the general highlighted the work being put in by the Norwegian government to prep the weaponry for certification on F-35s....

...The often outspoken head of the program office then contrasted the work by Norway to other countries developing weapons for the fifth-gen fighter.

"I wish that were the case with some of the other partner weapons we are going to try and put on this airplane, but it's not," he said. "Those weapons are still not being developed and are not as mature as we'd like them to be. Norway is doing exactly the right thing to go on the F-35....

...After his speech, Bogdan told Defense News the Norwegian designs "were pretty smart" and called APEX "a pretty impressive weapon."

The APEX, or Armor Piecing Explosive, has faced concerns from the Air Force, which will operate the F-35A, because it is an explosive round. Bogdan, however, said he believed the service would come around to its use once the ammunition has been used by Norwegian forces.

"They want to see us qualify APEX on the airplane, use it and see how effective it is, and then they may look at what their options are," Bogdan said. "I understand that. They are in a wait and see mode, and until the airplane has that weapon on there, we can show how effective it can be, I wouldn't expect the Air Force to change."

Both the Marines and Navy, which will operate the F-35B and F-35C models, have expressed interest in APEX as well, Bogdan said."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /25944383/
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Unread post21 Apr 2015, 19:26

popcorn wrote:Nammo receives contract to prepare integration of APEX ammunition for F-35 Lightning II

RAUFOSS, Norway, Nov. 26, 2014 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- The Nammo Group has signed a contract with the Norwegian Armed Forces to provide services and supplies to prepare the integration of the 25 mm APEX next-generation multi-role ammunition for the F-35A

APEX - Unique Ammunition  
APEX is the next generation fighter ammunition with unique capabilities to defoped for a limited range of targets. The development of APEX ammunition positions Nammo as a supplier of munitions for the F-35 fighter aircraft, as it meets the F-35 multi-role require­ments.Nammo receives contract to prepare integration of APEX ammunition for F-35 Lightning II


https://globenewswire.com/news-release/ ... ng-II.html

What is better? APEX or PELE, FAP, it seem that USAF choose PELE as the new F-35 round though
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Unread post22 Apr 2015, 07:21

The Apex round is the way to go in my opinion. As it is just as effective against Aircraft and Armor! While using the same round....In short it will be a force multiplier. :twisted:
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Unread post22 Apr 2015, 07:52

Corsair1963 wrote:The Apex round is the way to go in my opinion. As it is just as effective against Aircraft and Armor! While using the same round....In short it will be a force multiplier. :twisted:


APEX looks like a winner IMO, I saw the test results in the Future Firepower documentary. It was very impressive.
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Unread post22 Apr 2015, 08:45

eloise wrote:What is better? APEX or PELE, FAP, it seem that USAF choose PELE as the new F-35 round though


FAP and PELE work in very similar fashion although the mechanism is somewhat different. Because FAP and PELE do not have explosive effect, I doubt they are as effective against soft targets as APEX. APEX might even have the best performance against hard targets as it's given the best penetration performance values. Another advantage for APEX is that it also works well in grazing hits and FAP/PELE require direct hits to work. I think FAP and PELE might be significantly cheaper as they are simpler as they have no fuse or explosives.
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Unread post22 Apr 2015, 14:48

hornetfinn wrote:
eloise wrote:What is better? APEX or PELE, FAP, it seem that USAF choose PELE as the new F-35 round though


FAP and PELE work in very similar fashion although the mechanism is somewhat different. Because FAP and PELE do not have explosive effect, I doubt they are as effective against soft targets as APEX. APEX might even have the best performance against hard targets as it's given the best penetration performance values. Another advantage for APEX is that it also works well in grazing hits and FAP/PELE require direct hits to work. I think FAP and PELE might be significantly cheaper as they are simpler as they have no fuse or explosives.


Here is what i find about PELE round and APEX round, it seem that APEX have better penetration capabilities
Screenshot_2015-04-22-20-30-18~2.jpg
PELE round

Screenshot_2015-04-22-20-30-51~2.jpg
PELE round-2

Screenshot_2015-04-22-20-31-01~2.jpg
PELE round - 3

Screenshot_2015-04-22-18-34-10~2.jpg
APEX round

Screenshot_2015-04-22-18-35-15~2.jpg
APEX round 2
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Unread post22 Apr 2015, 15:33

Screenshot_2015-04-22-21-12-29~2.jpg
25 mm APEX explosive capabilities

Screenshot_2015-04-22-21-12-12~2.jpg
25 mm APEX penetration capabilities


Vs
Screenshot_2015-04-22-21-10-02~2.jpg
PELE penetration capabilities

Screenshot_2015-04-22-21-14-24~2.jpg
PELE explosive capabilities


——————
Btw APEX round does have very similar design with MK211 rounds, Do any one know why the penetration part is inside the bullet core? , and why didn't they make the penetration core with pointy head like a SABOT round?
Screenshot_2015-04-22-20-09-16~2.jpg
MK-211 round

Image
And do anyone know how FAP round work ?, it look similar but actually have completely different designs with PELE round
Screenshot_2015-04-22-18-36-39~2.jpg
FAP round
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Unread post26 Apr 2015, 11:30

KamenRiderBlade wrote:
popcorn wrote:Wow..a.50-caliber missile.


If we can mass produce this with the F-35 ammo, we just effectively shot up the effective kill ratio of the guns.

All you have to do is make sure to have the computer point the IR laser onto the center mass of the aircraft while the gun shoots a few rounds.

Ergo minimizing rounds spent.

On top of that, add in polymer casings for the 25mm rounds, you have a significant weight savings.


Go technology.

=D

Would it be monoeuvrable enough to hit aircraft in a dog-fight? Does it require a laser designator?
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