Indonesia interested in 48 Rafale, 4 Scorpene and 2 Gowind

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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Feb 2021, 07:09

element1loop wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:The Rafale won't be any help to Indonesia. If, that want to counter Chinese J-20's and J-31's.... :?


This is not a valid view, what matters is the regional context in which Indonesia in an air and naval fight with China, instigated by Chinese expansionist aggression, Indonesia would be working in close cooperation with Australia, Singapore, the rest of SEA, and probably US forces. Many of them operating from Australia, and probably a couple of other locations within SEA also, as required.

Depending on the circumstances, it's also likely that in a real fight with China, Singapore and Indonesia may operate from Australia, for a time, to better preserve their forces and remain in the game to cause the PLAAF and PLAN as much pain as possible for minimal losses. There's no way Australia would stay out of a fight if China attacked Indonesia. So an Indonesian Rafale force needs be viewed in high-end regional context. They would be getting tactical air data and support from RAAF in that case, if not tactical operating rights, and a close coalition for the duration.

In that light this Indonesian choice makes a lot of sense, I think with the right structure and support it can become a very effective force in a 2030s in and air-war in SEA or South China Sea. Certainly it is a massively better and smarter option than buying more Russian fighters.

It's also rather unlikely the French would stay out of such a fight against China, in SEA, as their South Pacific territories are prized strategic assets, and they will support Australia in a fight to make sure those are preserved in French control. The RAF would show up also, and probably operate from Australia with FARPs or combat support. So Indonesia would be far from fighting alone, there would be literally hundreds of strikefighters operating from Australia in that case, many of them 5th-gen or 4.5-ish, and probably some US bombers and fighters in the fight too.

PLAAF and PLAN would get absolutely monkey-hammered, they can't sink Australia, and with 200 LRASMs and good allies plus F-35s, they can't take Australia out of the fight either, which makes Indonesia defend-able against China with 48 x Rafale. A vastly better capability than the fighters they currently have, and they will finally have a proper precision long-range strike capability. To me that's a very welcome development.



It's clearly a valid view when Indonesia may have to face 5th Generation Stealth Fighters. Be that US and/or Chinese in origin ....
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Feb 2021, 07:15

wil59 wrote:

The Rafale would be no more effective against Chinese Stealth Fighters than any other 4.5 Generation Fighter. So, why spend so much more on the Rafale then???
If you compare a plane that has no combat experience, and we may or may not have real information about these capabilities then I think you are writing that sh*t !. You know nothing of the real capabilities of the Rafale also only what Dassault wants you to take so from this point of view I would do as you see this article!
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... f-35-63377



If, you're seriously quoting "national interest". Then you already lost the battle....(debate)
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Feb 2021, 07:17

icemaverick wrote:It’s the best option for Indonesia. It has an advanced radar, some sensor fusion, advanced electronic warfare capabilities, a reduced RCS and has a good A2A missile too. It also has pretty solid strike capabilities. Is it as good as the F-35? Probably not. But it’s the best option available to them.

F-16, Super Hornet, Typhoon and F-15EX could also be decent options but the Rafale makes more sense politically. France is very committed to the Rafale. The Typhoon program is very fragmented and uncertain. Indonesia doesn’t have bad relations with the USA but they’re not good enough for them to buy American fighters.

China’s stealth jets certainly look pretty formidable but Chinese aircraft are largely unproven so far. There is a decent chance the Rafale could be an effective platform against the J-20 and J-31.



The best option would have been to stick with the KFX. At least it had reasonable odds against the J-20/J-31.
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Unread post09 Feb 2021, 13:06

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Post08 Feb 2021 09:23

Then it's settled. Order 48 KFX immediately... /Yawn

C'mon, guy, you don't need to reply to every point of view with your own. Saying it more often doesn't make it any more valid. It really hurts the conversation when you do that.
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Unread post10 Feb 2021, 07:43

This package seems to be geared for naval combat and repelling potential amphibious assaults. For that role Rafale is pretty good choice with wide range of weapons available and good avionics. However they have long used F-16s and I'd say that F-16 Block 70/72 would've been just as good choice for the role and probably cheaper option. I think that they have shown interest for that version already and I'd say that it'd better to concentrate on lower number of aircraft type. I think KF-X will likely take 15 years to get to service and it will take time to mature and get all weapons and systems certified and working well. Besides the future of that project seems to be fairly cloudy at the moment.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post10 Feb 2021, 07:59

Against a serious near peer adversary. Anything short of a 5th Generation Stealth Fighter. Would be a complete waste of resources at this "late stage".
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Corsair1963

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Unread post10 Feb 2021, 08:34

Negotiations under way with Indonesia over fighter jet project: official

Defense 14:53 February 09, 2021


SEOUL, Feb. 9 (Yonhap) -- South Korea is in talks with Indonesia about a joint project to develop a next-generation fighter jet, the head of the arms procurement agency said Tuesday, amid speculation that the Southeast Asian nation wants to quit the project.

Indonesia agreed to partner in South Korea's KF-X project aimed at developing a new fighter jet by 2026, and promised to shoulder 20 percent of the total development cost of 8.8 trillion won (US$7.3 billion), or about 1.7 trillion won.

But Indonesia stopped making payments after investing 227.2 billion won, with around 600 billion won overdue.

"We are in the process of sounding out each other's position," Kang Eun-ho, chief of the Defense Acquisition Program Administration, said during a press briefing. "We will elaborate in detail when the time is right."

Indonesia's initial goal was to procure aircraft for its air force and advance the country's aerospace industry through the partnership but foreign media have been reporting that the Southeast Asian nation is now pushing to sign a deal with France to purchase new fighter jets.

South Korea has been working on the KF-X project since 2015 to develop a homegrown cutting-edge fighter aircraft to replace the Air Force's aging fleet of F-4 and F-5 jets.

In September last year, Korea Aerospace Industries Co. got down to the final assembly of a prototype that is expected to be made public by April.

When the development is complete, 40 units are planned to be delivered to the Air Force by 2028 and another 80 units by 2032, officials said.

Meanwhile, Kang also vowed to thoroughly prepare to secure a light aircraft carrier for the military, saying that multiple researches are under way for the project.

"We will make thorough preparations to make sure there are no setbacks in pushing for the project when the budget is secured at the National Assembly," he said.

https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN2021020900 ... al/defense
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loke

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Unread post19 Feb 2021, 16:42

Indonesian Air Force plans to buy 36 Rafale, 8 F-15EX jets by 2024, existing aircraft to be upgraded too, says air chief


According to the meeting’s summary document, Indonesia plans to buy 36 Rafale and eight F-15EX jets, with six of the latter expected to arrive by 2022.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/i ... ts/2149103

If it happens it will be a boost for Rafale on the export market. Rafale is currently operated by Egypt, India, Qatar, and ordered by Greece.
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Fox1

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Unread post03 Mar 2021, 19:52

The Rafale is a good machine, pretty much equal to or better than anything in its class. No, it isn't 5th Gen. But it also isn't vaporware. It is something that physically exists today and can be bought. That counts for something. An advanced 4.5 Generation fighter that you have is worth more than a 5th Gen aircraft that is likely still a decade away from significant production...if it gets produced at all. Indonesia could do a lot worse than choosing the Rafale for the defense of their home islands.

Also, just how many 5th gen fighters does China currently have in service? They have the J-20 but it hasn't been produced in huge numbers yet. And it is doubtful it is on par with aircraft like the F-22 or F-35 anyway, or even remotely close to being as stealthy. The J-31's future still seems pretty cloudy, though it appears to be a pretty capable design with legit stealth features. Thus, the bulk of their most capable fighter force will remain Flanker variants for the foreseeable future. I think the Rafale would fair pretty well against the Flanker threat, while also being a good strike platform capable of carrying a good variety of munitions. It is far from useless, especially when used in conjunction with the aircraft of other forces that will no doubt be present in the area if the situation gets to the point that China and Indonesia are actually shooting at each other.

While maybe you might one day see Indonesia get into the F-35 game (if they ever get approved for such a purchase) or purchase France's future Dassault stealth fighter, the Rafale is at least a serious upgrade to their current inventory. So I am happy to see folks in the Indo-Pacific region purchasing additional capability, in whatever form that takes.
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milosh

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Unread post03 Mar 2021, 20:43

Fox1 wrote:Also, just how many 5th gen fighters does China currently have in service? They have the J-20 but it hasn't been produced in huge numbers yet. And it is doubtful it is on par with aircraft like the F-22 or F-35 anyway, or even remotely close to being as stealthy.


They already build not small number of planes, estimates are between 40 to +60 operational J-20 they already have and official production rate is ~40 planes per year so they will build around same number of J-20 as Indonesia plan to buy Rafales.

Fox1 wrote:The J-31's future still seems pretty cloudy, though it appears to be a pretty capable design with legit stealth features.


I am quite sure Chinese will have some kind of lighter stealth, is that J-31 or some single engined stealth we will see, but surely they go in that direction and if you look "chinese speed" then they can go from nothing to mass production in very short period.

So 48 Rafales really aren't deterrent for Chinese air force but as part of whole deal it is good buy.

Btw I don't think Rafale is noticeable better compared to modern Flankers. Chinese Flankers are having quite powerful PESA/AESA radars and doesn't need to carry fuel tanks nor have missiles with high RCS which Meteor probable have (intakes doesn't look promising in therms of RCS) also new missiles for Flankers have quite a range, PL-20 and R-37 so big advantage in missile range isn't there either.
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loke

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Unread post04 Mar 2021, 11:54

milosh wrote:Btw I don't think Rafale is noticeable better compared to modern Flankers. Chinese Flankers are having quite powerful PESA/AESA radars and doesn't need to carry fuel tanks nor have missiles with high RCS which Meteor probable have (intakes doesn't look promising in therms of RCS) also new missiles for Flankers have quite a range, PL-20 and R-37 so big advantage in missile range isn't there either.

I think you are quite wrong. If Rafale is not substantially better than the latest Flankers, why then didn't India just buy some new, updated flankers, and new and longer range missiles? Much cheaper than introducing a completely different type.

The answer is that Rafale with MICA and Meteor is far above and beyond any flanker variant. According to the Indian Air Force, they are even comfortable meeting the J-20 in the Rafale.

Indian experience with Russian missiles:
New Delhi: In two years from now, the Indian Air Force's frontline Sukhoi-30 fighters may be re-armed with Israeli Derby air-to-air missiles after the jet's Russian-made R-77 missiles were found wanting in air combat operations over the Line of Control on February 27 this year.

Among the Indian Air Force's fighters which were targeted were two Sukhoi-30s which managed to evade the AMRAAMs which were fired at close to their maximum range of 100 kilometres. Fully defensive and desperate to escape the incoming AMRAAMs, the IAF Sukhoi-30s escaped being shot down but were unable to retaliate the F-16s because they were out of position and their own missiles, the Russian R-77s, did not have the range to realistically engage the Pakistani fighters. IAF sources told NDTV that the Russian missiles do not match its advertised range and cannot engage targets which are more than 80 kilometres away.

To meet its requirements, the IAF is looking at the I-Derby variant of the Israeli missile which was unveiled at the Paris Air Show in 2015. Integrating the missile into the Russian fighter will be a challenge and, according to sources, will require Israeli expertise, particularly in developing a data-link between the Sukhoi-30 and the missile, once it is fired.A fighter jet communicates with the missile through the data link and passes on updated vectors (location) of the fighter which has been targeted.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/outgunn ... es-2044172
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Unread post04 Mar 2021, 16:02

Kemp insists that the new Gripen NG will be the “main challenger to JSF”, dismissing the Eurofighter Typhoon on cost grounds. He says the Dassault Rafale will “never get started on the export market” because of what he called “launch customer nervousness – who wants to be the first and perhaps only customer?”


Image

So another Gripen loss to that Rafale that will never be exported?
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XanderCrews

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Unread post04 Mar 2021, 17:01

wil59 wrote: If you compare a plane that has no combat experience, and we may or may not have real information about these capabilities then I think you are writing that sh*t !. You know nothing of the real capabilities of the Rafale also only what Dassault wants you to take so from this point of view I would do as you see this article!
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... f-35-63377


hats off to the Author who managed to squeeze an entire article from nothing :lmao:

Wil, I know you like the Rafale but this is desperate.

vilters wrote:My operational trust in A2A missiles is, well, close to freezing point.

During planned tests in calibrated environments, all works well.

In actual combat? ? ?
You can not expect missiles that have hundreds of vibrating flight hrs on them to work as they do in tests.
Just be happy if they get off the rail. What happens afterwards has more to do with luck then tech.



Amazing how "lucky" missiles get compared to bullets, especially in the jet age.

I think someone crunched the numbers on infantry combat and figured out that something like 20,000 bullets are expended for every enemy killed. Air combat is even more
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milosh

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Unread post04 Mar 2021, 17:17

loke wrote:I think you are quite wrong. If Rafale is not substantially better than the latest Flankers, why then didn't India just buy some new, updated flankers, and new and longer range missiles? Much cheaper than introducing a completely different type.


Because they already have around 280 Flankers for which they are planing big upgrade with as I said powerful AESA radar. Also India with Rafale get interesting tech transfer, France is helping them with modern engine development.

loke wrote:The answer is that Rafale with MICA and Meteor is far above and beyond any flanker variant.


It was been that, but now it isn't. Chinese Flankers are armed with PL-20 which have much longer range then Meteor, and Russian Flankers (Su-35 for example) are getting R-37 again with much better range then Meteor.

And to be clear at least in case of R-37, it is dual pulse missile so it isn't slugish in terminal phase, for PL-20 is also mentioned it could have dual pulse engine.

loke wrote:Indian experience with Russian missiles:


R-77 have shorter range because of grid fins, nothing new there and Indians knew that, reason why RuAF still used R-27 is lack of range of R-77, only with R-77-1 you can see R-77 on their fighters. With PESA radar downside of R-27 (SARH mode) isn't that problematic.

Indian problem was basing of Su-30 which were far away to be useful. This will be problem with Rafales too because basing close to Kashimir its expensive fighters would make them easier pray for stand off weapons, which is why India is in process of getting second hand MiG-29 from Russia which will be upgraded on MiG-35 level in therms of electronics and engines.
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Unread post07 Apr 2021, 15:24

Milosh, I'm curious as to your opinion here..

"In 2015, the Indonesian Air Force bought 16 Sukhoi Su-35s to renew a squadron of old F-5E Tiger IIs, at the expense of the Rafale and the Eurofighter..."

Now it may be due to cost or other factors, but why didn't they just buy more SU-35's vs. Rafale's?

I would concur that the Meteor isn't the huge advantage some make it out to be. By the time the aircraft are delivered and certified with this weapon, it likely won't out-stick/otherwise give any great advantage vs. Chinese AAM's. That may be true even TODAY, nevermind many years from now.

This Rafale buy is looking more like a maritime strike capability, vs. true swing role jet as in the case of India. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I was curious as to your opinion on the matter. Why didn't they just buy more SU-35's?
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