Mission impossible : defeat IDAF in the mid 1980s

Discuss air warfare, doctrine, air forces, historic campaigns, etc.
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wrightwing

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Unread post30 Dec 2020, 06:26

mixelflick wrote:
milosh wrote:When MiG-25 were used by Iraqis as they are designed to be used they were quite potent machines:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmPkq5jQmYQ

in fact Iran also had problem to down MiG-25 if it used properly. This is why they used F-5 for ambush instead lot more capable F-14. Iraqis would easily detect F-14 and command MiG-25 pilot to fly high and even excellent AIM-54 couldn't help if that happen.

btw Iraqis MiG-25 weren't all P version maybe half of fleet was P (figher interceptor). So they didn't have big fleet of MiG-25 interceptors but still achieved lot with them.

MiG-31 had all good stuff of MiG-25 but much more reliable FCS, noticeable better autonomy and 2-2.5 times higher G limit during supersonic flight. Also MiG-31 had what can consider advanced datalink even in 1990s.

So I really doubt IDAF could deal with Foxhounds if there isn't noticeable numerical advantage and Soviet pilots act stupid.


Interesting video! So it's apparent to me Mig-25's were dependent on GCI, but so too did the F-15's rely heavily on AWACS. It was really disheartening to see all of the failed Sparrow shots, after how many years since that issue presented itself in Vietnam? Frankly, the R-40 looked far more reliable, and let's remember one took down Speicher's F/A-18C first night of the war.

I don't believe the Eagle crashed, but I do believe it was hit. On the one hand, that's too close for comfort. On the other, the F-15 can really take some hits and get those pilots home! The R-40 has an enormously powerful warhead, much larger and more powerful than any Sparrow (or AMRAAM, for that matter).

The whole thing illustrates just how important situational awareness is though, doesn't it? An F-35 that can't be seen but who can see these Foxbats from the minute they take off.... incredible. I would NOT want to be a foreign pilot fighting that thing, because doing flips, cobra's etc isn't going to cut it. They'll be spare parts, teeth and eyeballs in short order..

F-15/AIM-7M had a much better record than Mig-25/R-40, by a huge margin.
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mixelflick

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Unread post30 Dec 2020, 16:56

OK..... source please?

I'm sure many more AIM-7 shots were taken by F-14's, 15's, 18's and even some F-16's. But where is the data on the Mig-25 R-40? To my knowledge, the Iraqi's downed Speicher's F/A-18 with one, and damaged an F-15 in another. I'm sure the Iraqi's fired some at Iranian fighters, but haven't seen any figures.

Where else were R-40's being fired in anger by Mig-25's? Africa/Algeria???
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wrightwing

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Unread post30 Dec 2020, 19:31

mixelflick wrote:OK..... source please?

I'm sure many more AIM-7 shots were taken by F-14's, 15's, 18's and even some F-16's. But where is the data on the Mig-25 R-40? To my knowledge, the Iraqi's downed Speicher's F/A-18 with one, and damaged an F-15 in another. I'm sure the Iraqi's fired some at Iranian fighters, but haven't seen any figures.

Where else were R-40's being fired in anger by Mig-25's? Africa/Algeria???

The source is the number of aircraft that have been shot down by US, Israeli, and Saudi F-15s with AIM-7M vs the number of aircraft that have been shot down by Mig-25s with R-40s. It's not even a close comparison.
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madrat

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Unread post31 Dec 2020, 05:54

Let's look at wikipedia.
On 3 May 1981, an Iraqi MiG-25PD shot down an Algerian Gulfstream III.
On 19 March 1982, an Iranian F-4E was badly damaged by a missile fired by an Iraqi MiG-25.
On February 1983, an Iraqi MiG-25PD shot down an Iranian C-130.
In April 1984, an Iraqi MiG-25PD shot down an Iranian F-5E.
On 21 March 1984, an Iraqi MiG-25PD shot down an Iranian F-4E.
On 5 June 1985 an Iraqi MiG-25PD shot down a second Iranian F-4E.
On 23 February 1986, an Iraqi MiG-25PD shot down an Iranian EC-130E.
On 10 June 1986, an Iraqi MiG-25PD shot down an Iranian RF-4E.
In October 1986, an Iraqi MiG-25PDS shot down a second RF-4E.
On 2 October 1986, an Iraqi MiG-25PD shot down a Syrian MiG-21RF.
t Cdr Scott Speicher, was shot down on the first night of the war by a missile fired by a MiG-25.
An Iraqi MiG-25PD fired three missiles at General Dynamics EF-111A Raven electronic warfare aircraft, forcing them to abort their mission.
On 30 January 1991, an IQAF MiG-25 damaged a USAF F-15C.
On 23 December 2002, an Iraqi MiG-25 shot down a U.S. Air Force unmanned MQ-1 Predator drone.

MiG-25 is superior perhaps to F-4 and other third generation aircraft, but she didn't do well against any fourth generation aircraft.
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mixelflick

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Unread post01 Jan 2021, 17:57

That's quite a few, thanks for the history lesson.

More than I thought, actually. The Speicher kill and hitting an F-15C are particularly impressive IMO, given each was designed well after the Foxbat. And in the case of the F-15, it was designed specifically to counter it (which inarguably, it has). Downing one American 4th generation fighter and damaging a 2nd with a Soviet 3rd gen is still impressive IMO, if unfortunate for Speicher... :(
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nastle

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Unread post02 Jan 2021, 15:04

IMHO mig7 su24 could be the biggest threat to IDAF but trying to destroy most of their aircraft on bases

and even soviets to AVOID as much as possible air battles with israelis yes even in mig29/31 or su27 [ they will be slaughtered] and wait until air strikes /SSM devastate most IDAF airbases and use their mobile SAM to defend most of their ground troops
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