F-15EX (is useless)

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.

Is the F-15EX really unnecessary?

Yes
10
31%
No
22
69%
 
Total votes : 32

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element1loop

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 08:18

jetblast16 wrote:There seems to be a trend in the USAF of fielding the "next generation" platform, only to somewhat neglect it after it is fielded for the "next greatest/ latest thing". If you look at what happened to the F-22 Raptor, that system was prematurely cancelled, and funds to upgrade it, to make it more relevant trickled in over the years, while near full attention was applied to the F-35, the "next best thing". Now we have NGAD, the "the latest and greatest thing", which will undoubtedly begin to chip away at funding for critical upgrades to the F-35. Watch.


Somehow the F-16 build managed to escape all of that, even when today the upfront capability cost is not all that different, but the relative capabilities sure are.
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element1loop

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 08:41

Corsair1963 wrote:The Su-30MKI is the Indian Air Force primary Air Superiority Fighter. Honestly, I doubt they would often use the Brahmos under real world combat conditions. Especially, the latter.... Yet, makes for a fine picture..... :wink:


They did not go to the trouble and expense of integrating that for photo-ops. Sans a bomber force, that, plus their AAR is their primary anti-ship strike combination and it certainly would get used in anger from that platform. Though they now have P-8A and would love to put LRASM on it, or JSM even, eventually ... if they play their cards right.
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element1loop

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 08:48

wrightwing wrote:Well when you're talking about weapons with a range of 1000+ miles, they don't need to be too close to the conflict zone.


But that's why there are B-52s and B-1Bs, possibly to be supplemented by logistics aircraft launching standoff strike weapons.

Might as well get 144 F-111s out of the boneyard if all the need is regional-range missile truck with AAR, and can fire AAMs at an F-35A's supplied target data. Carlo would be all over that like a fly on ...
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jetblast16

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 14:11

Quoting the GAO won't get you much respect around here..........(Nor, the CBO or POGO)


I quote what I see. I am neither qualified to assay the veracity of the GAO report, and although I do appreciate the contributions and view points of some members here, nor do I have any real interest in getting much respect around here from other members. In fact, I have %0.00 interest.
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jetblast16

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 14:16

The F-15EX has something neither the F-22 nor the F-35 have...a GiB (Guy in Back). The potential guy in back or Weapons Systems Officer gives great mission flexibility, as it can free up the pilot to concentrate on flying the aircraft, while the WSO can manage the jet's sensors and defensive systems. Moreover, with automation assisting the WSO, they could in theory pilot drones or manage a small squadron of unmanned aircraft systems to assist the main jet in a specific mission objective. Furthermore, the F-15EX has an immediacy to it...it can potentially be used now. It seems as though the "full" potential of the F-35 won't be unlocked or reach fruition until Block 4, and that is several years away...
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jetblast16

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 14:23

Just so you know, I am not arguing against the F-35. The reason I created this thread is so that users can express their full viewpoints against the new F-15, without descending into pages of tit for tat and hassling, which would could potentially get the main thread about the F-15EX locked by the moderators.

I think by taking a hard, objective look at what's available and what's coming, we can perhaps get a better view of where we are, why we are here...
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mixelflick

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 14:27

Isn't several years the same timeframe though, that Eglin's 2 test birds will be adhering to?

We're not talking about F-15EX's reaching squadron service then until 2023 at the earliest. Granted, that may be faster than any other fighter but it's still.... years. Then I'm guessing what, 3-6 months for air crews to become proficient in all the new bells and whistles?
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XanderCrews

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 15:11

jetblast16 wrote:
I quote what I see.


the internet is a wonderful place, but reposting everything you "see" is going to add to some serious lies and confusion in a thread you claim seeks the opposite

jetblast16 wrote:The F-15EX has something neither the F-22 nor the F-35 have...a GiB (Guy in Back). The potential guy in back or Weapons Systems Officer gives great mission flexibility, as it can free up the pilot to concentrate on flying the aircraft, while the WSO can manage the jet's sensors and defensive systems. Moreover, with automation assisting the WSO, they could in theory pilot drones or manage a small squadron of unmanned aircraft systems to assist the main jet in a specific mission objective.


GIBs don't work for free. A twin engine, Twin manned force is going to cost-- and already more than F-35.

like I said, the pure magic of declaring F-35 too expensive and then spending even more on other stuff is a sight to behold...

Furthermore, the F-15EX has an immediacy to it...it can potentially be used now. It seems as though the "full" potential of the F-35 won't be unlocked or reach fruition until Block 4, and that is several years away...


What "immediacy"??

I think you got that backwards, I'd love to know where I can deploy my squadrons of F-15EX "now" but of course its not IOC and years away yet. meanwhile the F-35 is in service in the hundreds even before block IV. one can use the non "Full" protentional of the F-35 right NOW actually.

its an interesting argument when the airplane that hasn't reached IOC is "ready now" but the plane that reached it back in 2016 and needs an upgrade and can compete with everyone but China according to Kelly, and even then it would be used heavily because there is nothing else out there that can do what it does anyway.

Even the Hypersonics that F-15EX is (uniquely) supposed to be lugging around, and fleets of unmanned vehicles for the GIB to fly are "Several years away" so its also years away from being useful in the China fight as well not to mention the annual buys to actually build up the fleet of not only F-15EX, but hypersonics, and UAV fleets.

Thats why this whole thing is a bit of a farce.

The EX is "ready now"

Oh hell yeah brother!! Lets deploy those operational EX squadrons to the PACAF right now with their hypersonics and accompanying UAV cloud!! Wait--- you mean thats all years away? I guess in the meantime we are "stuck" with those imperfect yet operational and already deployed F-35s??


I swear to god the entire USAF propaganda arm is going hard on crack right now. I've never seen anything like this.

Non operational fighters are "ready now"

Operational fighters aren't ready

Next Generation Air Dominance is not the F-22

F-22s no longer even mentioned in the China fight (can't go bringing up the failure of LGAD?)

Fleets of UAVs and Hypersonics are appearing from thin air that are also ready now, while Block 4 TR3 is "too far away"

screaming about a lack of capacity while bad mouthing the Only operational in production fighter they have going

Completely got it wrong on last NGAD-- ready for new NGAD! (won't be like Last GAD! pinky promise!)

NGAD will be cheaper and not suffer delays thanks to new tech advances. New Tech can't be used retroactively to simply fix F-35, or F-22 for that matter.

F-15EX is ready now, except it isn't

F-15EX is cheaper, except its not

F-15EX will have a bevy of options, that are undeveloped and theoretical and also years away

I'm ready to call all the bluffs now. I want them to kill the F-35 tomorrow just to watch them completely drown.

lying bag of snakes
Last edited by XanderCrews on 26 Apr 2021, 15:23, edited 2 times in total.
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wrightwing

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 15:17

Corsair1963 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
Well when you're talking about weapons with a range of 1000+ miles, they don't need to be too close to the conflict zone.


Even that range may not be enough.......

It's enough for B-52s, so I suspect an F-15 will have an even better chance. There's no A2AD that puts fighters at risk 1000+ miles away. Even the S400 isn't going to put fighters at risk at much more than 150nm.
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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 15:18

element1loop wrote:



Our former Def-Min was under the impression recently that RAAF will be launching hypersonic weapons from just about every platform it has, but certainly from the F-35A in particular.

F-35s will carry hypersonic weapons, but not AGM-183 sized ones.
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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 15:52

element1loop wrote:
wrightwing wrote:Well when you're talking about weapons with a range of 1000+ miles, they don't need to be too close to the conflict zone.


But that's why there are B-52s and B-1Bs, possibly to be supplemented by logistics aircraft launching standoff strike weapons.

Might as well get 144 F-111s out of the boneyard if all the need is regional-range missile truck with AAR, and can fire AAMs at an F-35A's supplied target data. Carlo would be all over that like a fly on ...

There aren't enough B-1/52s, to respond everywhere on a timely basis, first of all. Secondly, you may be familiar with the term distributed lethality.
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sferrin

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 16:22

XanderCrews wrote:F-22s no longer even mentioned in the China fight (can't go bringing up the failure of LGAD?)


LGAD? :?
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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 16:25

wrightwing wrote:distributed lethality.



isn't that exactly what he mentioned talking about putting hypersonics on everything, right down to reviving the F-111?

In a July 15 Air Force press release on the Boeing contract award for EX, General Mike Holmes said, “The F-15EX is the most affordable and immediate way to refresh the capacity and update the capabilities provided by our aging F-15C/D fleets. The F-15EX is ready to fight as soon as it comes off the line.”

General Holmes’ comment is interesting in view of the fact that the same press release stated that the “first eight F-15EX aircraft will be fielded at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, to support testing efforts.”


The release added that two F-15EXs are slated to arrive at Eglin in the second quarter of FY21. Boeing too expects the first F-15EXs to be ready to test, not to fight. In fact, the company is doing the Air Force a favor in getting a pair of EXs to Eglin early, Kumar says. The remaining six Lot 1 F-15EXs won’t be delivered until 2022.

What needs testing? Boeing says it’s not the EX’s airframe or engines, acknowledging that $5 billion in foreign investment in Advanced Eagle variants (the F-15K, F-15SA, F-15QA) and thorough testing took care of that.

Rather, it’s the U.S. Air Force-specific hardware/software systems – from the EX’s Eagle Passive Active Warning and Survivability System (EPAWSS) to its Operational Flight Program (OFP) 9.1 mission computer, APG-82 radar and Legion IRST Pod - that need vetting. The Air Force had already begun testing these modernization systems on F-15C and F-15E. Adding a pair of showroom new, reliable EXs to the relatively small test fleet at Eglin and at Boeing’s Palmdale, Calif., facility will speed things up.

How much? Air Combat Command says the test aircraft will remain at Eglin for a while. It expects the new F-15s to achieve initial operating capability (IOC) following the Required Assets Available milestone expected by the end of FY23. Boeing plans to deliver the next batch of EXs (Lot 2) the same year.


Interesting new definitions of "now" these days. "Now"= years away. One has to wonder what the government definition of "in a few years" is? A decade?

They run the whole military like the VA now? :mrgreen:

"Your today appointment is ready now, please report to the local VA hospital in the final quarter of 2023, for your immediate medical attention"
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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 16:27

sferrin wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:F-22s no longer even mentioned in the China fight (can't go bringing up the failure of LGAD?)


LGAD? :?


Oh thats my new name for F-22: Last Generation Air Dominance/Legacy Generation Air Dominance


F-22 is old and busted and can't win against China according to the same folks who told us it was critical not even 10 years ago.
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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 17:43

Yep, this is what I thought - F-15EX won't be ready to fight for years.

And in the interim, we're going to bash our only other option - repeatedly. Congress has already signaled no more plus ups in the budget, and for good measure USAF mentioned building a 5th gen minus to be "the new F-16". Shazam..

Throw in all the other stuff you pointed out, and it's apparent the inmates are running the asylum in USAF/USN. How did things get this bad? We had the true upper hand with the F-14, 15, 16 and 18. In almost every real world instance, they came out on top. Every single one was exported and with the exception of the F-14/Iran mis-step, only made our allies stronger. They've since screwed up almost every single aircraft program: From the Navy's "flying dorito" to the F-22, KC-46 and I'd argue the B-2 as well. Now they're blowing it with the F-35.

I don't know who's responsible (other than Gates), but it's time to clean house IMO..
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