F-15EX (is useless)

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.

Is the F-15EX really unnecessary?

Yes
10
31%
No
22
69%
 
Total votes : 32

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jetblast16

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 17:44

the internet is a wonderful place, but reposting everything you "see" is going to add to some serious lies and confusion in a thread you claim seeks the opposite


True, but the quote in question, I believe, comes from the GAO, a government agency whose sole purpose is for "accounting".

GIBs don't work for free. A twin engine, Twin manned force is going to cost-- and already more than F-35.


Care to post some numbers? The F-15EX CAN make use of a GiB, but doesn't have to. That mission flexibility is baked into the system from the outset.

What "immediacy"??


Oh, like, sending a jet to this year's Northern Edge 2021, about a MONTH-and-a-half after receiving the first article. You do realize that most of the testing that's being done on the "new" F-15EX is a formality, right?
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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 18:37

F-35EX should not be permitted to enter FRP until after it passes it's JSE tests...
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 19:39

True, but the quote in question, I believe, comes from the GAO, a government agency whose sole purpose is for "accounting".


and?


Care to post some numbers?


sure:

The U.S. Air Force has made $1.2 billion payment to Boeing for what will total out to $22.89 billion worth acquisition of F-15EX fighters in the coming years, the U.S. DoD announced July 13.

The first payment covers the manufacture of eight aircraft, which are to be used as test machines, and they will be deployed at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla. The first two aircraft will be delivered in the second quarter of fiscal year 2021, and the remaining six in fiscal 2023. “The strategic basing process is in work to determine the fielding locations” for subsequent lots, the U.S.A.F. said in a press release.

The July 13 contract provides for the “design, development, integration, manufacturing, test, verification, certification, delivery, sustainment, and modification of F-15EX aircraft,” including spares and support gear, technical and training manuals, and support, USAF said. It is a cost-plus-fixed-fee, cost-plus incentive fee contract, the DoD said.

The F-15EX replaces the oldest F-15C/Ds in the inventory. Eight were approved in the fiscal 2020 budget and 12 were requested for fiscal 2021. Over the five-year Future Years Defense Program, the Air Force expects to buy 76 of the aircraft, toward a possible ultimate buy of 144 airplanes.

The Air Force also awarded a $101.4 million contract to GE for the first lot of 19 F-15EX engines—the GE-F110-129—on June 30. The engines will power eight aircraft and there will be three spares.


I've seen flyway quoted at $87.7 million for F-15EX and $77.9 for F-35A. the lowest I've ever seen F-15EX quoted at was 80 million in a now official budget document debunked USAF times article. This was in the early days of "lets just make up numbers, and then get the public narrative established" (like how its "ready now") and then we will get the actual truth later.

obviously the 150 million per with spares for the test articles is not indicative of production craft, nor is it flyaway, but I can't help but notice :

he FY2020 defense authorization bill funded F-35 procurement at $10.9 billion for 90 aircraft (60 F-35As, 10 F-35Bs, and 20 F-35Cs, an increase of 11 aircraft and decrease of $0.5 billion from the Administration’s request), including $1.4 billion in advance procurement, the requested level. The joint explanatory statement accompanying the bill included language

authorizing economic order quantity contracting and buy-to-budget acquisition, allowing the purchase of more than the authorized number of F-35s if that procurement would not require additional funds and would mitigate any negative cost and schedule impacts from the actions or decisions of foreign partners or customers (e.g., reduction in purchased quantities);
requiring the Secretary of Defense to seek compensation from the F-35 contractor for costs related to the failure to deliver ready-for-issue spare parts;
restricting the transfer of F-35 aircraft, technology, support equipment, and other assets to Turkey, unless certain conditions are met;
requiring certification that support equipment needed to absorb F-35s formerly intended for Turkey into the U.S. fleet will be procured prior to taking possession of those jets;
requiring a competitive analysis among various methods to improve the F-35’s Autonomic Logistics Information System;
requiring the F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) to provide sustainment cost data as part of existing quarterly briefings to the congressional defense committees;
reporting on the progress and performance of the F-35 aircraft program (§166);
mandating reports on an integrated master schedule and past performance assessment for each planned phase of F-35 Block 4 and C2D2 upgrades, F-35 reliability and maintainability metrics, Block 4 capability development and fielding activities, and modernization and upgrade plans for the F-35 Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS), and the steps being taken to improve accountability of F–35 parts within the supply chain.
FY2020 defense appropriations bill: The final omnibus budget bill funded F-35 procurement at $11.1 billion for 98 aircraft (62 F-35As, 16 F-35Bs, and 20 F-35Cs, an increase of 20 aircraft and $.3 billion below the Administration’s request), including $1.4 billion in advance procurement, the requested level.


113 million per copy by dividing 98 into 11.1 billion (regardless of the more expensive F-35B and C variants-- Im actually inflating the price since theyre more expensive)

also 22.8 billion for how many F-15EX? Am I reading that right? :| at the above rate, 22.8 billion will buy about 200 F-35s to include the more expensive F-35B and C.

Now If I'm missing something by all means let me know. I will be happy to be corrected, and I included the whole thing in order to not appear to be cherry picking.

113 vs 150 million, and I'm not sure just how much cheaper the F-15 Full procurement cost can be. Even if they know 20 percent off that, the F-35 still comes out to be cheaper. as for CPFH, theres not much difference big picture, and the F-35 is going to continue to drop, while the F-15EX is where it is basically.

F-15EX is the latest variant of Boeing’s so-called Advanced F-15, with the USAF having ordered an initial eight aircraft under a $1.2-billion deal that was announced in July 2020 as part of the U.S. Fiscal Year 2020 defense budget. The USAF is set to procure a minimum of 144 new F-15EX Eagles under an indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity (IDIQ) contract worth up to $22.89 billion, with the first 80 jets planned over the next five years

I think that settles it??? 144 for $22.89 billion vs 98 F-35 to include even the B and C for $11.1 billion?

as for CPFH I've seen F-15s routinely set at around 40K per flight hour. theyre usually double the f-16s cost. The F-35 is going to continue to trend toward F-16 rates, and its going to have many key advantages as to why. Theres just not many ways to make a heavy twin engine fighter much cheaper to operate and I think after 40 years unless EX brings something really new to the table, its going to be at F-15 rates we've all grown to know and love, and the reason the F-16 exists in the first place.


Do you care to post some numbers? There's whole articles that say they can't put a price tag on F-15EX and sources disagree on the exact cost. Now I know that 88 million (whish is one quoted cost) is more than than 78 million. I also know that twin engines cost more to maintain, and I know that 2 man crews cost more than 1 man crews unless their both willing to work for half as much, at half the training. "baked in" well that depends as they say.


The F-15EX CAN make use of a GiB, but doesn't have to. That mission flexibility is baked into the system from the outset.


You can't hire and fire GiBs on ad hoc basis. If they're on the roster they have to be fed, housed, clothed, trained, paid, and kept proficient. I don't make the rules, if you're going to have an additional man, that will bring additional costs whether you use them all the time or not.

What "immediacy"??


There are no operational F-15EXs no matter how many exercises they make an appearance at, and IOC is not expected for a few more years "formality" or not. the one thing I've learned about the military is they take that formality stuff very seriously.

2023, is not "now", unless youre typing this from 2023. in which case I have some stock market and important sports betting questions. how did the mid-terms go BTW?


Oh, like, sending a jet to this year's Northern Edge 2021, about a MONTH-and-a-half after receiving the first article.


1. 1 jet is not a fleet or even a squadron
2. as I said all the "high end stuff" that F-15EX brings to china, is not in service. So both F-35 and F-15Ex are years away from fighting china.
3. go send it to Kadena insead of test then, its so ready afterall. :roll:

It aint IOC until its IOC. and IOC is a very involved process that involves more than just the bare minimum software for operation for example. I don't know if you are unaware of that, or delibrately obfuscating. but one test airplane is not an operation squadron. Stop me if I'm going to fast.

Theyre both a long ways out, but only one is "ready now" according to the brass, when its of course not. Its just another Amraam and other ordnance plinker like everything else unless the fleets of EW drones and Hypersonics actually show.

is this that "hard objective look" you mentioned?

You do realize that most of the testing that's being done on the "new" F-15EX is a formality, right?


it’s the U.S. Air Force-specific hardware/software systems – from the EX’s Eagle Passive Active Warning and Survivability System (EPAWSS) to its Operational Flight Program (OFP) 9.1 mission computer, APG-82 radar and Legion IRST Pod - that need vetting. The Air Force had already begun testing these modernization systems on F-15C and F-15E. Adding a pair of showroom new, reliable EXs to the relatively small test fleet at Eglin and at Boeing’s Palmdale, Calif., facility will speed things up.

And IOC is IOC, and last I checked had to be a squadron level.

Welcome to the exciting world of the military test bureaucracy and other dog and pony shows that add cost and time. The F-35 has been dealing with it for over a decade. its a real f**king great time.


you know for a guy pretending not to have a dog in the fight jetblast, you sure are getting "spirited"



c'mon man you won. I gave up already. I want my fleets of hypersonic armed F-15EX that somehow cost less than F-35 and are "ready now" deploying to PACAF tomorrow. Why is this so hard? I think you know the answer to that.

Lets go over the main reasons I'm told we need the F-15EX. ready?

1. to deliver Hypersonics that don't yet exist
2. to control Fleets of EW UAVs that don't yet exist
3. its ready now, even when its not, and the above 2 are not ready now either
4. its cheaper, but its actually costs more.

well I'm convinced.

now without getting huffy, I think I've pretty well explained it. Will the F-15EX be in better standing in 6 or 7 years? absolutely. but thats not "Now" and going to Northern edge doesn't mean a damn thing in the grand scheme of things. If we wanted we could have has F-35s making appearance in exercises early on as well (in fact we may have anyway, but I can't recall at the moment) Even the notion of a "formality" well there are still things to test, and even if it was a "formality" the rules or the rules, you don't get to change them unfortunatly. Theres lots of rule changes that could have aided and benefitted F-35 (even now) but We don't get to play the "what if" game.

Is F-15EX worth getting? maybe. does it bring some unique things to the table? Yes. But please don't blow smoke up my @$$ about "Ready now" and "cheaper," because its demonstrably NOT. I'm a patient man, I can wait a few years if it has capability worth having, and I'm willing to pay a little more to get nicer stuff and more capability.

But don't BS me and remember your own words, please.


jetblast16 wrote:Just so you know, I am not arguing against the F-35. The reason I created this thread is so that users can express their full viewpoints against the new F-15, without descending into pages of tit for tat and hassling, which would could potentially get the main thread about the F-15EX locked by the moderators.

I think by taking a hard, objective look at what's available and what's coming, we can perhaps get a better view of where we are, why we are here...


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Last edited by XanderCrews on 26 Apr 2021, 20:25, edited 4 times in total.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 20:00

steve2267 wrote:F-35EX should not be permitted to enter FRP until after it passes it's JSE tests...


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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 20:21

XanderCrews wrote:
Lets go over the main reasons I'm told we need the F-15EX. ready?

1. to deliver Hypersonics that don't yet exist
2. to control Fleets of EW UAVs that don't yet exist
3. its ready now, even when its not, and the above 2 are not ready now either
4. its cheaper, but its actually costs more.

well I'm convinced.



:lmao:

Hard not to be convinced really.
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Unread post27 Apr 2021, 00:39

They should have just upgraded existing F-16's to the V Standard as F-35A's replaced them. That would have made much more sense and been at least fairly cost effective. Hell, they could have even just upgraded the existing F-15C's as planned. Either one would be better than buying new F-15EX's.
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jetblast16

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Unread post27 Apr 2021, 00:41

Hell, they could have even just upgraded the existing F-15C's as planned


Would have taken millions just to upgrade (rebuild or completely replace) the wings on each jet; not worth it.
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Unread post27 Apr 2021, 00:42

Don't worry, NGAD will solve the woes of the F-35 and everything else

NGAD - Next Generation Air Debacle
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Unread post27 Apr 2021, 00:50

There is something known as metal fatigue...

The F-15C is rapidly nearing end of life. Without any hope of replacing them with the ultra-capable and now largely forgotten Raptor, we are kinda of stuck. OK, there's the F-35A. If that is the case, why are they potentially replacing F-15Cs and Ds with "EX"s, instead of the F-35? If the F-35 replaces the Cs and Ds it'll have to happen very soon, and that would cut into active duty wing counts for the newer jet.

F-16V? What's the average airframe lifetime of a Block 50 F-16? Would it even be worthwhile at this point to upgrade them? Well, then if not, buy the Block 70/72...but we could be buying F-35s instead. Fine, then why is that not potentially happening?

The F-15EX is in reality based on a 40+ year old design, with an airframe that acts like a polished mirror to radars lol..

There doesn't seem to be a right answer.
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Unread post27 Apr 2021, 01:02

jetblast16 wrote:There is something known as metal fatigue...

The F-15C is rapidly nearing end of life. Without any hope of replacing them with the ultra-capable and now largely forgotten Raptor, we are kinda of stuck. OK, there's the F-35A. If that is the case, why are they potentially replacing F-15Cs and Ds with "EX"s, instead of the F-35? If the F-35 replaces the Cs and Ds it'll have to happen very soon, and that would cut into active duty wing counts for the newer jet.

F-16V? What's the average airframe lifetime of a Block 50 F-16? Would it even be worthwhile at this point to upgrade them? Well, then if not, buy the Block 70/72...but we could be buying F-35s instead. Fine, then why is that not potentially happening?

The F-15EX is in reality based on a 40+ year old design, with an airframe that acts like a polished mirror to radars lol..

There doesn't seem to be a right answer.


The upgraded F-15C's would easily last another 10-20 years. Well, longer than needed......


Also, their is a better answer more F-35A's........ :doh:
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Unread post27 Apr 2021, 03:33

jetblast16 wrote:Don't worry, NGAD will solve the woes of the F-35 and everything else

NGAD - Next Generation Air Debacle



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And its going to be a debacle. Call me a pessimist but the Air Force is not demonstrating procurement competentcy for the entire 5th generation. Surely upping the ante with 6th generation, plus magic will solve all of this (but remember rule number 1-- none of this amazing new technology can fix the fifth generation fighter. Only an all new fighter can do that)


The F-15C is rapidly nearing end of life. Without any hope of replacing them with the ultra-capable and now largely forgotten Raptor,


They can't bring up the raptor because suddenly everyone goes "hey wait a a minute!!"

F-16V? What's the average airframe lifetime of a Block 50 F-16? Would it even be worthwhile at this point to upgrade them? Well, then if not, buy the Block 70/72...but we could be buying F-35s instead. Fine, then why is that not potentially happening?


I'm not a fan of the EX buy, but if we are going to buy them, we should buy only them-- I want just one fleet of 4th gen teen series white elephants that will be near worthless by 2030, not F**king two...

The F-15EX is in reality based on a 40+ year old design, with an airframe that acts like a polished mirror to radars lol..


yep

There doesn't seem to be a right answer.


I think thats fair, I just don't like the way the USAF is going about this at all. Theyre being stupid, theyre being deceptive theyre cutting off their nose to spite their face. Goldfien was very clear about F-15EX not taking even a "dime" from F-35. Brown replaces him and treats us to one the most retarded rants I've ever seen in late february, that begins the F-35 onslaught. the same service bitching about aging airplanes is also sabotaging their cornerstone replacement. I have no idea what they are doing. its maddening.

I just don't like being lied to. If its a good idea it will stand on its own merits. Don't tell me its "Ready now" when its years away. Yes I understand its much faster than starting from scratch, but thats still a few years. and in a few years the situation will look different. And yes its going to cost more money, so don't tell me its cheaper. I'm willing to pay a little more to get a little more, but this is basic math. "its cheaper than F-35 and ready now!" except its not. So the two big reasons to buy F-15EX have like so many other "knee jerk claims" turned out to be false--- but we are too far along now! oh boy...

This is the interesting thing about the last 25 years in fighters. (or recently last year with Covid) fortunes rise and fall. Todays idiot is tomorrows genius, today's Genius is tomorrows idiot. governor newsome was being praised last April, he is now being recalled only a year later. Look at Cuomo.

look at Gates decision to cancel the F-22 in favor of the Global war on terror. Smart? dumb? now that the F-22 is suddenly unable to win in China, is he now smart for cutting it? curtailing F-22 was considered a helluva mistake the last 10 years or so. what about now? What does it all mean. is the entire 5th generation a complete mulligan? and if so, why would the 6th generation be better? how can we trust them? even if the F-35 is a mulligan the 4th generation is not an option either. S essentially the USAF has not one fighter that can take on China? What have they been doing with those trillions of dollars the last 25 years?
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steve2267

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Unread post27 Apr 2021, 06:09

"... the Air Force is not demonstrating procurement competentcy for the entire 5th generation."

Yes and no. I tend to agree with this statement, conditionally based on what ends up happening with the F-35 program. BUT, no I don't agree with this statement to the extent if it was not for the USAF, we probably wouldn't have stelph to begin with. The Navy didn't do so great with the Dorito, and they seem to cling tight to their bugs.

One could maybe claim the USMC are the new stelph flag bearers... but I tend to think the jarheads were so overjoyed at getting a Harrier replacement that could go fast, and still land up and down, that they prolly said, "Stelph -- what's that? Oh, it's included? No extra cost? Sure sure, we'll take it. Just toss it in..."
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post27 Apr 2021, 09:59

I swear, Boeing most have a Lobbyist bribing somebody high up the chain of command or somebody high up in the USAF to get them to buy the F-15EX.
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Unread post27 Apr 2021, 11:36

jetblast16 wrote:OK, there's the F-35A. If that is the case, why are they potentially replacing F-15Cs and Ds with "EX"s, instead of the F-35?


Boing, err I mean... Boeing!
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post27 Apr 2021, 11:40

Corsair1963 wrote:They should have just upgraded existing F-16's to the V Standard as F-35A's replaced them. That would have made much more sense and been at least fairly cost effective. Hell, they could have even just upgraded the existing F-15C's as planned. Either one would be better than buying new F-15EX's.


You are of course correct but the problem is that the F-16 (including the -V of course) is Lockheed Martin and not Boeing like the F-15EX.

The only reason why the F-15EX is being procured is to keep the Boeing flight production lines opened, period!
There's nothing that the F-15EX can do better than the F-35A (specially for the money that the F-15EX costs), period again.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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