F-15EX (is useless)

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.

Is the F-15EX really unnecessary?

Yes
10
31%
No
22
69%
 
Total votes : 32

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element1loop

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Unread post01 May 2021, 03:14

jetblast16 wrote:I mean, shoot!! I want the below!!! But when is THAT supposed to happen? If you think the below is going to happen soon, be cost-effective, and be on time or schedule, I have a bridge to sell you:)

AFRL_NGAD_concept_profile_shot.png


The best bit is the wee jutty-outy UHF antenna on the back ... very 6th-gen! :doh:
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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element1loop

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Unread post01 May 2021, 03:21

Corsair1963 wrote:Yet, few even said anything about the fact. That Smith is the representative of the 9th District in Washington. To be specific the area around Renton. So, what is in Renton...............BOEING! They have their main plant there that build B737's, B747's, and P-8's! Which, is a big share of their business. Funny, that virtually none of the articles that posted Rep Smiths negative comments about the F-35. Brought up his clear conflict of interest and his bias on the subject matter.


'Boeing' ... hmm ... that name rings a bell ... I hazily remember a company with a name like that one getting into all sorts of hot water a few years back for corporate corruption ... over US air force contacts ... nah ... can't be the same company.
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element1loop

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Unread post01 May 2021, 03:33

mixelflick wrote:... The only negatives I can see are lack of stealth and... those CFT's. ...


If they can see you from 600 kms away with an AEW platform that's a bit of a tactical drawback ... compared to a real 21st century BVR fighter. But it's not as big a problem as getting locked by an Su-57 or J20, that you couldn't lock-up before they fired at you. Everything that is not VLO in air combat now is "back-of-the-bus".

F-15 was once the T-REX, but now it's just another Cretaceous dinosaur that should have gone extinct.

CFT' centralize mass far better than EFTs, better roll and yaw control and frees 2 pylons.
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steve2267

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Unread post01 May 2021, 03:54

I figger Boing is prepping an unsolicited offer for the USAF, to be unveiled next year -- a USAF version of the Growler to escort the super duper Eagle. The following year they will offer USAF versions of the MQ-25 to refuel the Growlers and SDE's.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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element1loop

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Unread post01 May 2021, 06:25

steve2267 wrote:I figger Boing is prepping an unsolicited offer for the USAF, to be unveiled next year -- a USAF version of the Growler to escort the super duper Eagle. The following year they will offer USAF versions of the MQ-25 to refuel the Growlers and SDE's.


Funny thing is USAF is actually looking to get a leg up into USN's EW capabilities. Who knows what they want to put it on though.
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Unread post01 May 2021, 16:24

steve2267 wrote:I figger Boing is prepping an unsolicited offer for the USAF, to be unveiled next year -- a USAF version of the Growler to escort the super duper Eagle. The following year they will offer USAF versions of the MQ-25 to refuel the Growlers and SDE's.


A Growler would be a poor choice to escort the F-15EX and for the air force in general, since they don't operate any F-18 derivatives. Now, if they could take the Growlers jamming pods and other goodies and move them into the F-15EX air frame to create an EF-15G of sorts, that might actually draw some interest. I'm honestly more than a little surprised the U.S. Air Force didn't seek out electronic warfare and wild weasel variants based on the F-15E design way back in the 1990's as replacements for the F-4G and EF-111. As it ended up, they didn't replace the EF-111 at all and relied on the Navy for jamming support. And I think most would recognize the F-15E would have been a much better basis for a wild weasel platform than the F-16.
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Unread post01 May 2021, 17:51

element1loop wrote:
mixelflick wrote:... The only negatives I can see are lack of stealth and... those CFT's. ...


If they can see you from 600 kms away with an AEW platform that's a bit of a tactical drawback ... compared to a real 21st century BVR fighter. But it's not as big a problem as getting locked by an Su-57 or J20, that you couldn't lock-up before they fired at you. Everything that is not VLO in air combat now is "back-of-the-bus".

F-15 was once the T-REX, but now it's just another Cretaceous dinosaur that should have gone extinct.

CFT' centralize mass far better than EFTs, better roll and yaw control and frees 2 pylons.


On the 600kms thing... Yes, I know this. You know this. USAF knows it. I'm thinking there are 2 ways they can address..

1.) Don't use it at all in those theater's where IADS operate/Don't use it until IADS are eliminated
2.) Jam/spoof otherwise counter enemy radar/sensors electronically

After thinking more about it, I'm leaning towards #2. The reason? The more I learn about EPAWS, the more I realize it will likely usher in a transformational capability. So yes, the Eagle's barn door radar signature is a problem. Its not going to be addressed with any kind of RCS reducing magic, so back to the old standby - E/W jamming.

It's also likely the AN/APG-82 and has a few tricks up its sleeve...
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Unread post01 May 2021, 18:04

Fox1 wrote: And I think most would recognize the F-15E would have been a much better basis for a wild weasel platform than the F-16.



A late 1970s USAF study argues the F-16 over the F-4 based on survivability, Cost, and Range - also looks like someone proposed some loadouts that the USAF obviously didn't want to pay for such as drop tanks with 6 x AGM-45 or 4 x AGM-88s. It is also shown as being more survivable than the F-15 and much lower cost.

The EB-66 was the primary USAF standoff Jamming platform over Nam I think there was about a 9 year gap there before EF-111 came about so there again you had a gap with the USN Prowler as the best platform since late 72.
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Unread post01 May 2021, 19:59

mixelflick wrote:
element1loop wrote:
mixelflick wrote:... The only negatives I can see are lack of stealth and... those CFT's. ...


If they can see you from 600 kms away with an AEW platform that's a bit of a tactical drawback ... compared to a real 21st century BVR fighter. But it's not as big a problem as getting locked by an Su-57 or J20, that you couldn't lock-up before they fired at you. Everything that is not VLO in air combat now is "back-of-the-bus".

F-15 was once the T-REX, but now it's just another Cretaceous dinosaur that should have gone extinct.

CFT' centralize mass far better than EFTs, better roll and yaw control and frees 2 pylons.


On the 600kms thing... Yes, I know this. You know this. USAF knows it. I'm thinking there are 2 ways they can address..

1.) Don't use it at all in those theater's where IADS operate/Don't use it until IADS are eliminated
2.) Jam/spoof otherwise counter enemy radar/sensors electronically

After thinking more about it, I'm leaning towards #2. The reason? The more I learn about EPAWS, the more I realize it will likely usher in a transformational capability. So yes, the Eagle's barn door radar signature is a problem. Its not going to be addressed with any kind of RCS reducing magic, so back to the old standby - E/W jamming.

It's also likely the AN/APG-82 and has a few tricks up its sleeve...

We can all agree that the F-15 isn't the best choice going forward, but even with IADS/A2AD, it can still be a useful platform. F-22/35/unmanned platforms can find targets while remaining in a VLO configuration, while F-15E/EX lob AARGM-ER/SiAW/JSM/JSOW-ER/JASSM-ER/AGM-183 from well outside SAM ranges. It's also useful for anti-cruise missile missions, and even BMD missions.
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Unread post01 May 2021, 21:42

basher54321 wrote:
Fox1 wrote: The EB-66 was the primary USAF standoff Jamming platform over Nam I think there was about a 9 year gap there before EF-111 came about so there again you had a gap with the USN Prowler as the best platform since late 72.

Skywarrior?
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Unread post01 May 2021, 22:42

madrat wrote:Skywarrior?


Destroyer!

The EKA-3B was the USN primary standoff Jamming platform AFAIK until replaced by the Prowler from 1972 - there were other types used as well.

Not to get this confused with the F-15EX of course which just has a self protection system that replaces TEWS.
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Unread post01 May 2021, 23:01

There are also situations where the F-15's large RCS could actually be useful for deception/distraction purposes to aid LO aircraft. Getting the bad guys to focus their attention on what appears to be an F-15 threat 200 miles to the east could be useful for a flight of LO aircraft coming in to clobber the target from the west. Warfare is very much a team activity and the best teams are often those composed of a variety of dissimilar players. The key to success in modern war has been making the battlefield a 3-dimensional nightmare for your enemy. Aircraft like the F-15 still have a seat at the table.
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Unread post01 May 2021, 23:36

basher54321 wrote:
madrat wrote:Skywarrior?


Destroyer!

The EKA-3B was the USN primary standoff Jamming platform AFAIK until replaced by the Prowler from 1972 - there were other types used as well.

Not to get this confused with the F-15EX of course which just has a self protection system that replaces TEWS.


I misunderstood what you were saying. They had the 135s by then so not completely disarmed. Just by then operations focused on hunter killer teams and the proliferation of SPJ pods.

https://dracobooks.com/Tactics-and-Tech ... Nalty.html
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Unread post02 May 2021, 15:20

Fox1 wrote:There are also situations where the F-15's large RCS could actually be useful for deception/distraction purposes to aid LO aircraft. Getting the bad guys to focus their attention on what appears to be an F-15 threat 200 miles to the east could be useful for a flight of LO aircraft coming in to clobber the target from the west. Warfare is very much a team activity and the best teams are often those composed of a variety of dissimilar players. The key to success in modern war has been making the battlefield a 3-dimensional nightmare for your enemy. Aircraft like the F-15 still have a seat at the table.


Yes, with this I agree. I would think it makes the enemy's job of countering you easier. Let's say the Chinese find a weakness in the F/A-18 block III (be that kinematics, its radar etc.). Since it's still an almost all Hornet Navy, that makes things dicey. Doubly so, if they've got the AIM-120D's number. It's always been a game of counter, counter-counter but the danger today is in losing the first round - because there might not be a 2nd.

OTOH the F-35 seems to have more tricks up its sleeve than any aircraft that came before it. There's only so much $ to go around though, so it'll be interesting to see where USAF stops with the F-15EX. 80 of them? 144? Or another 400 plus, to replace all F-15C's and F-15E's? The first Strike Eagles were used 30 years ago in Desert Storm. They aren't going to last forever, and it's clear USAF loves using them...
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Unread post03 May 2021, 07:24

Fox1 wrote:There are also situations where the F-15's large RCS could actually be useful for deception/distraction purposes to aid LO aircraft. Getting the bad guys to focus their attention on what appears to be an F-15 threat 200 miles to the east could be useful for a flight of LO aircraft coming in to clobber the target from the west. Warfare is very much a team activity and the best teams are often those composed of a variety of dissimilar players. The key to success in modern war has been making the battlefield a 3-dimensional nightmare for your enemy. Aircraft like the F-15 still have a seat at the table.


Same effect could be achieved using F-35s with Lüneburg lenses, decoy missiles or a lot of other assets. If you already have F-15s, then that would be one reasonable use for them in the modern battlefield (along with defending against cruise missiles or 4th gen attack aircraft). However I don't see much sense buying new F-15s for these kinds of jobs. F-35s can do the same things with equal or superior capability and can also do many things that F-15s (or other 4th gens) just can't do.
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