F-15EX (is useless)

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.

Is the F-15EX really unnecessary?

Yes
10
31%
No
22
69%
 
Total votes : 32

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wrightwing

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Unread post25 Apr 2021, 19:54

hkultala wrote:



There is quite much space under the wings of f-35 for quite big weapons. Also there should not be severe structural weight limits with the weapons racks under the wings.

The F-35 is limited to 5,000lb weapons, and of shorter length, than can be carried under the fuselage of F-15s.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post25 Apr 2021, 23:31

wrightwing wrote:
hkultala wrote:



There is quite much space under the wings of f-35 for quite big weapons. Also there should not be severe structural weight limits with the weapons racks under the wings.

The F-35 is limited to 5,000lb weapons, and of shorter length, than can be carried under the fuselage of F-15s.


Very rare that any tactical fighter would carry a 5,000 lbs weapon in the first place. Because now your getting into Bomber Territory! (B-1, B-2, B-52, and B-21)
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Corsair1963

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Unread post25 Apr 2021, 23:38

With tighter and tighter US Defense Budgets for the foreseeable future. The F-15EX isn't just useless. It's harmful to the defense of the US and her Allies.


As we need to funnel those resources from Legacy Programs to the next generation. Which, include the F-35, B-21, NGAD, Stealthy Drones, Cyber Warfare, Electronic Warfare, etc. etc.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post25 Apr 2021, 23:39

jetblast16 wrote:I question some of the engineering and assumptions that went into the F-35.

But due to challenges in developing and testing some of those new technologies, as well as continued schedule delays, the U.S. Defense Department’s most recent estimate in 2020 shows that Block 4 development is now projected to reach $14.4 billion, the GAO said.

Meanwhile, the modernization effort — which was initially expected to wrap up in 2026 — is now scheduled to conclude one year later, though the GAO noted that the schedule is based on “estimates formulated at the start of the Block 4 effort” and not Lockheed’s demonstrated performance. Therefore, it is possible “the scheduled 2027 completion date is not achievable,” the watchdog stated.

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/03 ... in-a-year/


Quoting the GAO won't get you much respect around here..........(Nor, the CBO or POGO)


:doh:
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wrightwing

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 00:39

Corsair1963 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
hkultala wrote:



There is quite much space under the wings of f-35 for quite big weapons. Also there should not be severe structural weight limits with the weapons racks under the wings.

The F-35 is limited to 5,000lb weapons, and of shorter length, than can be carried under the fuselage of F-15s.


Very rare that any tactical fighter would carry a 5,000 lbs weapon in the first place. Because now your getting into Bomber Territory! (B-1, B-2, B-52, and B-21)

Well there are a number of different hypersonic weapons under development, and that's where a non-penetrating aircraft like an F-15EX would likely see the most usefulness. There's no need to worry about the weapon bay sizes, and they're able to carry the outsize munitions.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 01:38

wrightwing wrote:
Well there are a number of different hypersonic weapons under development, and that's where a non-penetrating aircraft like an F-15EX would likely see the most usefulness. There's no need to worry about the weapon bay sizes, and they're able to carry the outsize munitions.


In the future battle space. I doubt there will be a safe place to hide for most none stealthy platforms. At least anywhere close to the potential conflict zone.

Plus, we already have the existing F-15E Strike Fighter Fleet. For the rare case that we do....
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XanderCrews

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 02:04

Corsair1963 wrote:Plus, we already have the existing F-15E Strike Fighter Fleet. For the rare case that we do....


Don't talk about that F-35E fleet we already have, you'll give away the game.


your getting into Bomber Territory! (B-1, B-2, B-52, and B-21)


Agreed.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 02:34

jetblast16 wrote:There seems to be a trend in the USAF of fielding the "next generation" platform, only to somewhat neglect it after it is fielded for the "next greatest/ latest thing". If you look at what happened to the F-22 Raptor, that system was prematurely cancelled, and funds to upgrade it, to make it more relevant trickled in over the years, while near full attention was applied to the F-35, the "next best thing".


The Air Force can't manage aircraft procurement. its interesting. horrifying, but interesting.


Now we have NGAD, the "the latest and greatest thing", which will undoubtedly begin to chip away at funding for critical upgrades to the F-35. Watch.


I thought for predictions to be interesting they couldn't be obvious?

Im just going to go over the bold parts for brevity sakes


Tech Refresh 3—or TR3 for short—comprises a new core processor, a radar upgrade and a new cockpit display, as well as numerous software improvements, including enhanced electronic warfare capabilities. Block 4 is the Air Force’s preferred model.
...


yes

The Air Force’s program of record remains unchanged at 1,763 F-35As. But at the current rate of 60 per year, it will be the early 2040s before that objective is attained.


Nothing new here really. the USAF has published production timelines that didn't conclude until 2037 ten years ago:


Image

This is why buying F-15EX is such a step backwards. We are going to have legacy aircraft flying into the 2030s anyway.

(Sidenote: Its interesting that 10 years after these numbers were published people are more in a panic than they were 10 years ago. "When you said 2040ish in 2011 I was fine. Now its 2040ish in 2021, and I'm panicking" Okay!)

The Air Force is indeed looking at other options.


Go right ahead, F-15EX isn't NGAD either and NGAD is still years and years away.

Unless the government has completely fixed everything its going to suffer delays and overruns itself. I watched this happen with the Super Hornet already. the worlds biggest POS in the late 90s, but by the late 2000s its suddenly looking great in comparison to the F-35 program.


Kelly took pains at the Aerospace Warfare Symposium to argue in favor of the Next-Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) program and developing that sixth-generation capability before China does.


We should scrap the F-22s. That would free up a lot of funding.

A new joint-service combat aircraft study now underway will assess the needs of the combat air force and what mix of aircraft it will need in the future. That mix will likely include NGAD, F-35, the F-15EX, and unmanned aircraft, which could be armed or provide electronic warfare escort.


I'm so old, I remember when F-22 was next generation air dominance. Now its not even mentioned. That was what... 15 whole years ago?

If the various efforts to improve F-35 sustainment bear fruit, the Air Force may actually get close to 1,763 Lightning IIs in its inventory. But at the current pace, and with other projects clamoring for funds and attention, the F-35 could turn out to be just a bridge to the future combat air force, rather than the destination once envisioned.


That bridge looking like the F-22 right now. I thought next generation Air Dominance was its whole niche? No? obsoletely already? I don't see F-35 going anywhere for a long time. like i said it seems to be the F-22 that overnight was no longer important.

Anyone predict that?

Or of course, its all a budget gambit...


jetblast16 wrote:I question some of the engineering and assumptions that went into the F-35.


Little late to that party.

Wait until you see the engineering and assumptions being thrown at NGAD...


But due to challenges in developing and testing some of those new technologies, as well as continued schedule delays, the U.S. Defense Department’s most recent estimate in 2020 shows that Block 4 development is now projected to reach $14.4 billion, the GAO said.

Meanwhile, the modernization effort — which was initially expected to wrap up in 2026 — is now scheduled to conclude one year later, though the GAO noted that the schedule is based on “estimates formulated at the start of the Block 4 effort” and not Lockheed’s demonstrated performance. Therefore, it is possible “the scheduled 2027 completion date is not achievable,” the watchdog stated.

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/03 ... in-a-year/



Well that's the last straw. a whole year for an airplane that will serve for decades? Just cancel the whole thing. I'll take 1700+ NGAD by 2037, at the same price please. Deliveries to begin by 2027. Buy F-15EX in the meantime. If 5th gen is no go with China, surely 4th gen is good to go

I'm off the F-35 bandwagon and firmly on the NGAD train. When can I expect my on time on budget 6th generation super fighter?
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sferrin

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 02:41

Corsair1963 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
hkultala wrote:


There is quite much space under the wings of f-35 for quite big weapons. Also there should not be severe structural weight limits with the weapons racks under the wings.

The F-35 is limited to 5,000lb weapons, and of shorter length, than can be carried under the fuselage of F-15s.


Very rare that any tactical fighter would carry a 5,000 lbs weapon in the first place. Because now your getting into Bomber Territory! (B-1, B-2, B-52, and B-21)



Not really. Both India and Russia have modified Flankers to carry Brahmos/Yakhont as well as Sunburn. The MiG-31 now carries the Kinzhal. The F-15 carries GBU-28. Also, how many 5000lb+ weapons has the US had in it's inventory? The last (aside from a couple bombs) was Hound Dog. Not really something one could put on a fighter.

article_5ceb917ef05233_38200114.jpg


Su-33_p800.jpg


B622 (1).jpg
Last edited by sferrin on 26 Apr 2021, 02:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 02:45

We won't see the NGAD before 2040. Even then it will just start to enter squadron service. In the mean time the F-35 will evolve along the way....(be upgraded)


Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised. If, the F-15EX doesn't get canceled in another 2-3 years. With the remaining aircraft just adsorbed into the existing F-15E Fleet.
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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 06:36

Corsair1963 wrote:We won't see the NGAD before 2040. Even then it will just start to enter squadron service. In the mean time the F-35 will evolve along the way....(be upgraded)
.


In terms of competitiveness this only matters from a budgetary standpoint. Anything new won't be used to directly replace F-35s. It would instead possibly supplant F-35 buys to replace things the F-35 was already scheduled to replace eventually. This is why I can't understand some of the conclusions people jump to. Even if F-35 is cancelled tomorrow theyre not going to throw away 600 of the newest fighter airplanes and rely on the majority 3 decade old fighter force. Even someone who is a 100 percent F-35 fire breathing hate fountain, its not going anywhere. Even they would have to acknowledge we are "stuck with it" and there are no refunds, and no time machines. This also applies to the F-22 which is the second newest, but more on that in a minute.

That mix will likely include NGAD, F-35, the F-15EX, and unmanned aircraft, which could be armed or provide electronic warfare escort.


Am I the only one who finds this extremely odd? There's only one bird in the world that has the title "Air Dominance Fighter" the F-22, and the USAF is talking Next Generation Air Dominance and suddenly the F-22 isn't even getting mentioned anymore? I thought that was the crown jewel and now it doesn't even exist? Next generation is interesting too, as we are still in the process of implementing the "Next (that would be fifth) generation"

F-22 is already "last generation?"

Imagine I was head lumber supplyman at my company. Then suddenly everyone was talking about the "next company head lumber supplyman" openly, and my name was never mentioned and I was suddenly persona non grata? That would be all the hallmarks of being fired...

No one else finds this weird? that the USAF "forgot" its most lethal air dominance fighter? I thought that box was checked, not to everyone satisfaction, but checked nonetheless

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets ... 22-raptor/

"primary function: Air Dominance"

The F-35 still has a job, and still has a great need and other than the budget battle being zero sum it would be completely secure.

It sure looks to me like the airplane in trouble most directly is F-22. But that makes so little sense...That would be a helluva feat for the USAF, Using future procurement funds to wipe out previously secured success. Might manage to kill two birds with one stone.
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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 06:42

sferrin wrote:
Not really. Both India and Russia have modified Flankers to carry Brahmos/Yakhont as well as Sunburn. The MiG-31 now carries the Kinzhal. The F-15 carries GBU-28. Also, how many 5000lb+ weapons has the US had in it's inventory? The last (aside from a couple bombs) was Hound Dog. Not really something one could put on a fighter.




The Su-30MKI is the Indian Air Force primary Air Superiority Fighter. Honestly, I doubt they would often use the Brahmos under real world combat conditions. Especially, the latter....

Yet, makes for a fine picture..... :wink:


That said, Russia has a fairly large fleet of Flankers and Mig-31's. So, they may use a few in such a role.


Yet, neither are the USAF either.....
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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 07:02

Corsair1963 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
Well there are a number of different hypersonic weapons under development, and that's where a non-penetrating aircraft like an F-15EX would likely see the most usefulness. There's no need to worry about the weapon bay sizes, and they're able to carry the outsize munitions.


In the future battle space. I doubt there will be a safe place to hide for most none stealthy platforms. At least anywhere close to the potential conflict zone.

Plus, we already have the existing F-15E Strike Fighter Fleet. For the rare case that we do....

Well when you're talking about weapons with a range of 1000+ miles, they don't need to be too close to the conflict zone.
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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 07:39

wrightwing wrote:
Well when you're talking about weapons with a range of 1000+ miles, they don't need to be too close to the conflict zone.


Even that range may not be enough.......
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Unread post26 Apr 2021, 08:04

sferrin wrote:
element1loop wrote:
sferrin wrote:It's all about being able to carry large weapons. The F-35 isn't a good candidate for that. And there's nothing else on the shelf. The End.


GBU-43/B large?


No. AGM-183-ish. ALBMs or BGs. The Eagles can carry larger weapons than the F-35.


Our former Def-Min was under the impression recently that RAAF will be launching hypersonic weapons from just about every platform it has, but certainly from the F-35A in particular.
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