FC-31 stealth fighter thread.

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 01:28

milosh wrote:
jessmo112 wrote:https://www.foxnews.com/tech/the-chinese-j-31-5th-gen-stealth-fighter-may-be-a-total-f-35-rip-off

Im curious why the Chinese Air forces dont want this thing? Even if its underpowered, it could likely make a decent bomb truck.it must have some design flaw that makes it dangerous, or obsolete.


They want J-31 to be "cheap" stealth fighter so they need at least some decent thrust. J-20 and J-31 aren't design to be bomb trucks.
J-20, J-31 have similar weapon bay design as F-22. shallow weapon bay primary for AAMs.

I expect they are waiting RD-33MKV which will probable be used as JF-17 upgrade too.

So with two RD-33MKV, FC-31 will have decent thrust (over 200kN)


RD-33MKV??? Don't you mean the VK-10M​..... :|
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jessmo112

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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 01:57

I dont think there is such a thing as a cheap stealth fighter. Not done correctly.
Even a top of the line 4th gen fighter costs 100 million.
Cheap stealth is a pipe dream.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 04:12

jessmo112 wrote:I dont think there is such a thing as a cheap stealth fighter. Not done correctly.
Even a top of the line 4th gen fighter costs 100 million.
Cheap stealth is a pipe dream.



He likely meant "affordable"....
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milosh

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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 07:00

Corsair1963 wrote:RD-33MKV??? Don't you mean the VK-10M​..... :|


RD-33MKV, upgraded RD-33MK with TVC or without it. VK-10M is new engine and I doubt Klimov did much on it because there wasn't market for VK-10M, MiG PAK-FA wasn't selected (VK-10M was proposed engine for that plane).

@jessmo112


I put cheap in "", I meant cheap compared to J-20 not cheap as cheap :wink:
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weasel1962

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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 08:27

Haven't read any reliable cost estimates of Chinese later gen fighters yet.

2 RD-33 however appears to be a lot cheaper than an F-135. What I do know is that in most cases, one would need 4 (or in some cases 6) engines, which that alone would be upwards of $10m which makes it comparable. Top up a little bit...= AL-31F. Add greas *ahem* commission payments and inflated cost of spares, the aircraft would definitely then be not cheap.
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jessmo112

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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 14:04

Corsair1963 wrote:
jessmo112 wrote:I dont think there is such a thing as a cheap stealth fighter. Not done correctly.
Even a top of the line 4th gen fighter costs 100 million.
Cheap stealth is a pipe dream.



He likely meant "affordable"....


Yeah? Like an affordable date? I guess its always a game of how little you can pay.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post31 Mar 2021, 08:17

CHINA / MILITARY

Chinese warplane firm lays out plans for new stealth fighter & next-gen aircraft
By Liu Xuanzun
Published: Mar 29, 2021 09:52 PM


A top Chinese warplane-producing company recently announced plans to make technological breakthroughs to ensure the successful development of a new, fourth-generation stealth fighter jet, and conduct test production and research on its next-generation aircraft in 2021.

China is widely expected to develop an aircraft carrier-ready stealth fighter jet, as the US is racing China in next-generation warplane development.

Dubbed a cradle of Chinese fighter jets, the Shenyang Aircraft Co. Ltd. under the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) released a statement last week on its WeChat public account and revealed its work plans for 2021.

The company aims to make breakthroughs in its fourth-generation fighter jet program by boosting related technologies, including additive manufacturing, control over surface electromagnetic defects, and automated fiber placement, so that the aircraft can be successfully developed, the statement said.

A fourth-generation fighter jet, in the Chinese context, is a stealth fighter jet comparable to the likes of J-20, F-22 and Su-57.

While the statement did not specify the name of the aircraft, it attached photos of the FC-31, the only known fourth-generation fighter jet being made by the Shenyang-based company.

Wang Ya'nan, chief editor of Beijing-based Aerospace Knowledge magazine, told the Global Times on Monday that it makes sense to speculate the statement is referring to an improved version of the FC-31, as the current versions are only prototypes.

The Chinese Navy needs a more advanced fighter jet on its aircraft carriers in the future, and the FC-31, when customized for that purpose, would be a good choice, Wang predicted.

The company announced that it is also exploring next-generation aircraft including research on technologies like thermal adaptation and integration of structure and function.

A technological system for the next-generation aircraft will be gradually formed as the company conducts test production and research, the statement said.

US Air Combat Command head General Mark Kelly said last month that the US is developing a next-generation fighter jet, but its progress could trail China's, US media outlet Defense News reported on February 26.

Experts said that the US is stirring up an arms race over new warplanes, but the concept of the next-generation fighter jet has still not been determined around the world.

China's next-generation fighter jet is expected to come into being by 2035, media reported in early 2020, citing Wang Haifeng, a chief architect at the AVIC Chengdu Aircraft Research and Design Institute.


https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202103/1219767.shtml
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mixelflick

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Unread post31 Mar 2021, 18:18

A lot of work to doon the FC-31, but much opportunity as well.

I think they'll see it through, but it's going to take a long time. 2030 or later for a fully mature, appropriately powered FC 31 for the Chinese Navy (and export). They've come this far, so barring any budget/developmental problems, I expect them to eventually field it.

NGAD will probably appear around that time though, and will pose a much greater challenge than the F-35C. In all candor, I don't think the Chinese Navy gets a fixed wing fighter surpassing the F-35C/NGAD anytime soon.
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Unread post01 Apr 2021, 03:20

mixelflick wrote:A lot of work to doon the FC-31, but much opportunity as well.

I think they'll see it through, but it's going to take a long time. 2030 or later for a fully mature, appropriately powered FC 31 for the Chinese Navy (and export). They've come this far, so barring any budget/developmental problems, I expect them to eventually field it.

NGAD will probably appear around that time though, and will pose a much greater challenge than the F-35C. In all candor, I don't think the Chinese Navy gets a fixed wing fighter surpassing the F-35C/NGAD anytime soon.


I doubt we will see a production standard J-35 (Naval J-31) much before the end of the decade. As for the NGAD I also doubt we will see it much before the end of the 2030's. Regardless, of what has been said about speeding up development. Just to much new technology plus the usual bureaucracy.....

It's worth noting we still don't know much of what the F-35 is really capable. As much of it's technology is not even close to maturity!
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inst

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Unread post01 Apr 2021, 04:25

weasel1962 wrote:Haven't read any reliable cost estimates of Chinese later gen fighters yet.

2 RD-33 however appears to be a lot cheaper than an F-135. What I do know is that in most cases, one would need 4 (or in some cases 6) engines, which that alone would be upwards of $10m which makes it comparable. Top up a little bit...= AL-31F. Add greas *ahem* commission payments and inflated cost of spares, the aircraft would definitely then be not cheap.


The WS-10 is mostly mature and I think the Chinese would prefer Chinese engines to Russian engines, barring the best Russian engines. Why? The Russians simply don't produce engines fast enough. If the Chinese want to say, scale up J-20 production, they can't simply get the Russians to do the production increases fast enough.

The engines to look at would be WS-13 and WS-19, and those projects would benefit from WS-10 maturity and WS-15 soon-to-be-maturity.

As for the timetable for operational J-31/J-35, I wouldn't be surprised if it came into at least IOC by 2025. Most of the kinks with Chinese sixth-generation aviation were smoothed out by the Chinese with the J-20. The J-31, in comparison with the J-20, is not an extremely ambitious project; all it wants to do is to produce a Harbor Freight F-35 without as many bells and whistles.

The original J-31 design doesn't even have EODAS; the J-31 might end up getting EODAS, but if it's going to be fitted the J-20 ends up cleaning shop for it.

===

That said, I don't really appreciate the J-31; it's, well, a Harbor Freight F-22 / F-35 knock-off. The J-20 is a more interesting design, given that it uses a slew of aerodynamic devices, whereas the J-31 is virtually a copy-paste job. No wonder the PLAAF doesn't want it.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post01 Apr 2021, 06:51

inst wrote:
The WS-10 is mostly mature and I think the Chinese would prefer Chinese engines to Russian engines, barring the best Russian engines. Why? The Russians simply don't produce engines fast enough. If the Chinese want to say, scale up J-20 production, they can't simply get the Russians to do the production increases fast enough.

The engines to look at would be WS-13 and WS-19, and those projects would benefit from WS-10 maturity and WS-15 soon-to-be-maturity.

As for the timetable for operational J-31/J-35, I wouldn't be surprised if it came into at least IOC by 2025. Most of the kinks with Chinese sixth-generation aviation were smoothed out by the Chinese with the J-20. The J-31, in comparison with the J-20, is not an extremely ambitious project; all it wants to do is to produce a Harbor Freight F-35 without as many bells and whistles.

The original J-31 design doesn't even have EODAS; the J-31 might end up getting EODAS, but if it's going to be fitted the J-20 ends up cleaning shop for it.

===

That said, I don't really appreciate the J-31; it's, well, a Harbor Freight F-22 / F-35 knock-off. The J-20 is a more interesting design, given that it uses a slew of aerodynamic devices, whereas the J-31 is virtually a copy-paste job. No wonder the PLAAF doesn't want it.


Hard to see the J-31/J-35 making IOC by 2025. My guess is closer to 2028-2030. Yet, with the Chinese being so secretive. You could be right???

Also, the J-31/J-35 will indeed have a Chinese Version of the EO/DAS. Nor, do I see it as being a poor mans Stealth Fighter. (Harbor Freight)

Lastly, the big question mark is indeed their engines. While, the Chinese can always fall back on Russian Engines. She will only really succeed by developing their own powerplants.
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inst

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Unread post01 Apr 2021, 07:21

Corsair1963 wrote:
inst wrote:
The WS-10 is mostly mature and I think the Chinese would prefer Chinese engines to Russian engines, barring the best Russian engines. Why? The Russians simply don't produce engines fast enough. If the Chinese want to say, scale up J-20 production, they can't simply get the Russians to do the production increases fast enough.

The engines to look at would be WS-13 and WS-19, and those projects would benefit from WS-10 maturity and WS-15 soon-to-be-maturity.

As for the timetable for operational J-31/J-35, I wouldn't be surprised if it came into at least IOC by 2025. Most of the kinks with Chinese sixth-generation aviation were smoothed out by the Chinese with the J-20. The J-31, in comparison with the J-20, is not an extremely ambitious project; all it wants to do is to produce a Harbor Freight F-35 without as many bells and whistles.

The original J-31 design doesn't even have EODAS; the J-31 might end up getting EODAS, but if it's going to be fitted the J-20 ends up cleaning shop for it.

===

That said, I don't really appreciate the J-31; it's, well, a Harbor Freight F-22 / F-35 knock-off. The J-20 is a more interesting design, given that it uses a slew of aerodynamic devices, whereas the J-31 is virtually a copy-paste job. No wonder the PLAAF doesn't want it.


Hard to see the J-31/J-35 making IOC by 2025. My guess is closer to 2028-2030. Yet, with the Chinese being so secretive. You could be right???

Also, the J-31/J-35 will indeed have a Chinese Version of the EO/DAS. Nor, do I see it as being a poor mans Stealth Fighter. (Harbor Freight)

Lastly, the big question mark is indeed their engines. While, the Chinese can always fall back on Russian Engines. She will only really succeed by developing their own powerplants.



The prototypes have already flown, so I'm having trouble seeing why it'd take so long for the Chinese to IOC the J-31/J-35.

As far as stealth fighter goes, it depends on how many corners the Chinese cut on it. The J-20 is the PLAAF's pride and joy, and the estimated price that's been tossed around is 700-800 million RMB, or around 110 million. The J-31, on the other hand, is a reject destined for the PLANAF, and unlike the USN, the PLANAF doesn't actually have much of a lobby.

Hell, the PLANAF hasn't even officially committed to the J-31, as opposed to a navalized J-20. When you look at what the Chinese are planning to do with their carriers, you'll see at most 6 at the end of the decade, of which only the latest few are truly comparable to Ford / Nimitz with catapults. The J-15 is already in production for the Chinese carriers, and given the likely role of the Chinese carriers, as national prestige vehicles (6 carriers vs 10, good luck with that Gotterdammerung battle), they're good enough.
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Unread post01 Apr 2021, 09:22

inst wrote:

The prototypes have already flown, so I'm having trouble seeing why it'd take so long for the Chinese to IOC the J-31/J-35.

As far as stealth fighter goes, it depends on how many corners the Chinese cut on it. The J-20 is the PLAAF's pride and joy, and the estimated price that's been tossed around is 700-800 million RMB, or around 110 million. The J-31, on the other hand, is a reject destined for the PLANAF, and unlike the USN, the PLANAF doesn't actually have much of a lobby.

Hell, the PLANAF hasn't even officially committed to the J-31, as opposed to a navalized J-20. When you look at what the Chinese are planning to do with their carriers, you'll see at most 6 at the end of the decade, of which only the latest few are truly comparable to Ford / Nimitz with catapults. The J-15 is already in production for the Chinese carriers, and given the likely role of the Chinese carriers, as national prestige vehicles (6 carriers vs 10, good luck with that Gotterdammerung battle), they're good enough.


The V1/2 Prototypes have flown as we have a number of pictures to prove it. Yet, they appear to be the land based version of the J-31/FC-31. This would be somewhat different than a Naval J-35. Which, we haven't seen any pictures of. So, we don't even even know. If, a prototype of the Naval J-35 even exist in physical form at the moment? (hence my IOC 2028-30 prediction)

That said, I think it's pretty clear the Naval Version of the J-31 (i.e. J-35) has been approved and is being funded and developed. While, talk about a Naval Version of the J-20 has become a trickle.....(never likely in my opinion)

Either way the current J-15 is hardly "good enough" at least not post 2030. If, not before.....In short the J-35 is pretty much it.

IMHO 8)
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inst

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Unread post01 Apr 2021, 19:47

Corsair1963 wrote:
inst wrote:

The prototypes have already flown, so I'm having trouble seeing why it'd take so long for the Chinese to IOC the J-31/J-35.

As far as stealth fighter goes, it depends on how many corners the Chinese cut on it. The J-20 is the PLAAF's pride and joy, and the estimated price that's been tossed around is 700-800 million RMB, or around 110 million. The J-31, on the other hand, is a reject destined for the PLANAF, and unlike the USN, the PLANAF doesn't actually have much of a lobby.

Hell, the PLANAF hasn't even officially committed to the J-31, as opposed to a navalized J-20. When you look at what the Chinese are planning to do with their carriers, you'll see at most 6 at the end of the decade, of which only the latest few are truly comparable to Ford / Nimitz with catapults. The J-15 is already in production for the Chinese carriers, and given the likely role of the Chinese carriers, as national prestige vehicles (6 carriers vs 10, good luck with that Gotterdammerung battle), they're good enough.


The V1/2 Prototypes have flown as we have a number of pictures to prove it. Yet, they appear to be the land based version of the J-31/FC-31. This would be somewhat different than a Naval J-35. Which, we haven't seen any pictures of. So, we don't even even know. If, a prototype of the Naval J-35 even exist in physical form at the moment? (hence my IOC 2028-30 prediction)

That said, I think it's pretty clear the Naval Version of the J-31 (i.e. J-35) has been approved and is being funded and developed. While, talk about a Naval Version of the J-20 has become a trickle.....(never likely in my opinion)

Either way the current J-15 is hardly "good enough" at least not post 2030. If, not before.....In short the J-35 is pretty much it.

IMHO 8)


The Chinese plan is to at least IOC a 6th generation fighter by 2030. The problem with the J-20 program was basically that it launched too slowly; it took 9 years to get into mass production and it's still running interim engines. A J-35, likewise, is going to be somewhat more competent than a J-15 vs a NGAD or F/A-XX, but it'd still be outclassed significantly, so what's the point?

While engine technology is basically a black art, airframes are much easier to manage. The Chinese have metamaterial stealth in development that looks as though it'd be comparable to that of the F-35; i.e, -40 or -50 dBsm stealth on 5th generation fighters.
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Unread post02 Apr 2021, 16:21

inst wrote:


While engine technology is basically a black art, airframes are much easier to manage. The Chinese have metamaterial stealth in development that looks as though it'd be comparable to that of the F-35; i.e, -40 or -50 dBsm stealth on 5th generation fighters.

There's a lot more know how involved, in making the sausage.
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