FC-31 stealth fighter thread.

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post27 May 2020, 06:22

weasel1962 wrote:The J-20 and Su-57 use different engines and will do so even for future planned engines.



What??? The J-20 and Su-57 both use the AL-31/AL-41 Series of engines. Which, are common across all Flanker Models and even the J-10.


That said, recent reports claim the J-20 could now be using a version of the WS-10 (B?) and will eventually get the WS-15. While, the Su-57 is to get the izdeliye 30. Yet, both are likely some ways off. Assuming they don't suffer any major development problems and are ultimately successful?


Regardless, point here is both the J-20 and Su-57 use a common engine at this stage and may even do so long-term. As we don't know the long term success of either the WS-15 and/or izdeliye 30.
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Unread post27 May 2020, 06:35

Just because both start with AL doesn't make it the same engine. Its like arguing that the F-135 engine is the same as as the F-119 or F-110 since they all start with F. But sure, feel free to believe what you want to believe.
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Unread post27 May 2020, 06:45

weasel1962 wrote:Just because both start with AL doesn't make it the same engine. Its like arguing that the F-135 engine is the same as as the F-119 or F-110 since they all start with F. But sure, feel free to believe what you want to believe.




Both very closely related and "interchangeable".


Back to splitting hairs I see...........
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Unread post27 May 2020, 06:53

Strangely, didn't someone just laughed at the posts talking about retrofiting F119 onto the F-15...so by that logic now he claims that the F119 is therefore the same engine as the F110 that it replaces...lol

Interchangeable doesn't not make it the same engine. Its not even close.

btw, its also incorrect because its the AL-41F1S that has the same geometric fittings to enable retrofit. AL-41F1 is specifically designed for the T-50/Su-57. Different engines as well but what's pearls before swine? All the same.
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Unread post27 May 2020, 07:26

weasel1962 wrote:Strangely, didn't someone just laughed at the posts talking about retrofiting F119 onto the F-15...so by that logic now he claims that the F119 is therefore the same engine as the F110 that it replaces...lol

Interchangeable doesn't not make it the same engine. Its not even close.

btw, its also incorrect because its the AL-41F1S that has the same geometric fittings to enable retrofit. AL-41F1 is specifically designed for the T-50/Su-57. Different engines as well but what's pearls before swine? All the same.



Honestly, getting old....


QUOTE:



The Saturn AL-31 is a family of military twin spool turbofan turbofan engines. It was developed by Lyulka, later NPO Saturn, of the Soviet Union, originally for the Sukhoi Su-27 air superiority fighter. It produces a total thrust of 123 kN (27,600 lb) with afterburning in the AL-31F, 137 kN (30,800 lb) in the AL-31FM (AL-35F) and 142 kN (32,000 lb) in the AL-37FU variants. It powered all Su-27 derivatives and the Chengdu J-10 multirole jet fighter which was developed in China.

The AL-31FP and AL-37FU variants have thrust vectoring. The former is used in the Su-30MKI export version of the Su-30 for India & Sukhoi Su-30MKM for Malaysia . The AL-37FU can deflect its nozzle to a maximum of ±15° at a rate of 30°/sec. The vectoring nozzle is utilized primarily in the pitch plane. The Al-31FP is built in India by HAL at the Koraput facility under a deep technology transfer agreement.

It has a reputation for having a tremendous tolerance to severely disturbed air flow. In the twin-engined Su-27, the engines are interchangeable between left and right. The Mean Time Between Overhaul (MTBO) for the AL-31F is given at 1000 hours with a full-life span of 3000 hours. Some reports suggested that Russia was offering AL-31F to Iran to re-engine its F-14 Tomcat air fleet in the late 1990s.

According to Saturn`s Victor Mihailovic Chepkin, chief designer of the 117 and 117S engines, the Chinese WS-10 was developed with the aid of the AL-31`s maintenance technical documentation. China can domestically produce most AL-31 parts for its own jet engine programs, but must import turbine blades from Russia.

The 117S (AL-41F1A) is an upgrade of the AL-31F based on the AL-41F intended to power the Su-35BM, producing 142 kN (32,000 lb) of thrust in afterburner and 86.3 kN (19,400 lb) dry. It features a fan 3% larger in diameter (932 millimetres (36.7 in) versus 905 millimetres (35.6 in)), advanced high- and low-pressure turbines, an all-new digital control system, and provisions for thrust-vectoring nozzles similar to the AL-31FP. This engine will have an assigned life of 4,000 hours and an MTBO of 1,000 hours. The first flight of this engine was completed in an Su-35BM on 20 February 2008. On 9 August 2010, Ufa-based company UMPO started supplying 117S engines (AL-41F1S) intended for Su-35S fighters.

The 117 (AL-41F1) is a 5th generation engine custom built for Russia’s fifth-generation stealth fighter jet PAK-FA according to Sukhoi General Director Mikhail Pogosyan. Mikhail Pogosyan has clarified that claims that fifth-generation fighter allegedly has an old engine are wrong. Though most parameters of the new 5th Gen Engine are classified General Director Mikhail Pogosyan provided some information on the new engine, The engine thrust was enlarged by 2.5 tonnes when compared with the AL-31 engine, while the engine weight was cut by 150 kilograms. That allowed the new jet to supercruise i.e. move at a supersonic cruise speed without the use of after burner.

The Saturn Research and Production center made digitally controlled system (FADEC) of Project 117 Engine.The new engine produces 33,000 lbs (147 kN) of thrust in afterburner has a Dry weight of 1420 kilogram and T:W ratio of 10.5:1.

Mikhail Pogosyan further mentioned that this engine (117) meets the client’s (Russian AirForce) requirements. This is not an intermediate product made particularly for test flights. The engine was to be installed in production PAK-FA fighter which will be supplied to the Russian Air Force and prospective foreign clients.

Bench testing of a radically new engine (the second stage) for the Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft PAK FA will start in 2014, said the general designer-director of the Scientific and Technical Center "Saturn", Eugeny Marchuk "The engine will be ready in two years, and will begin bench testing then", said Marchuk at the 11th International Conference" Aviation and Space - 2012 ", which opened at the Moscow Aviation Institute. According to him, the new "engine 117" will belong to the "5 +" generation and its characteristics will be superior to the existing foreign counterparts engine for fifth generation aircraft. "This is - a fundamentally new engine, The motor unit weight is 30% less (than the 117C - approx.), Life-cycle costs will by 30% less, and it should be cheaper, "- said Marchuk.



Applications:
Sukhoi Su-27
Sukhoi Su-30
Sukhoi Su-34
Sukhoi Su-36
Sukhoi S-37 Berkut

Variants:

Al-31F
The basic engine developed to power the Su-27 fighter
Builder: Salyut, UMPO
Year: 1981
Thrust: 123 kN (27,700 lbf)
Thrust vectoring: No
Aircraft: Su-27, Shenyang J-11, Sukhoi Su-30MKK, Sukhoi Su-30(Salyut)



Al-31FP
Improved variant for the Indian Su-30MKI with thrust vectoring
Builder: Salyut, HAL
Year: 2000
Thrust: 123 kN (27,700 lbf)
Thrust vectoring: Yes
Aircraft: Su-30 MKI, Sukhoi Su-30MKM



Al-31FN
Improved variant for the Chengdu J-10
Builder: Salyut
Year: 2002
Thrust: 125 kN (28,100 lbf)
Thrust vectoring: No
Aircraft: Chengdu J-10



Al-31FM1
Improved version for the Russian Air Force
Builder: Salyut
Year: 2007
Thrust: 132 kN (29,700 lbf)
Thrust vectoring: Yes
Aircraft: Su-27SM, Su-30, Su-34



Al-31FM2
Improved version for the Russian Air Force
Builder: Salyut
Year: 2012
Thrust: 145 kN (32,600 lbf)
Thrust vectoring: Yes
Aircraft: Su-27SM, Su-30, Su-34



Al-41F-1S (117S)
Advanced derivative for the Su-35
Builder: UMPO
Year: 2010
Thrust: 142 kN (31,900 lbf)
Thrust vectoring: Yes
Aircraft: Su-35



Al-37FU
Advanced derivative for the Su-37
Builder: UMPO
Thrust: 145 kN (32,600 lbf)
Thrust vectoring: Yes
Aircraft: Su-37



Al-41F-1 (117)
Advanced derivative for the Sukhoi PAK FA
Builder: UMPO
Year: 2010
Thrust: 147 kN (33,000 lbf)
Thrust vectoring: Yes
Aircraft: PAK FA prototype



Specifications:

AL-31F
Type: Two-shaft afterburning turbofan
Length: 4,990 millimetres (196 in)
Diameter: 905 millimetres (35.6 in) inlet; 1,280 millimetres (50 in) maximum external
Dry weight: 1,570 kilograms (3,460 lb)
Compressor: 4 fan and 9 compressor stages
Combustors: annular
Turbine: 2 single-staged turbines
Maximum thrust:
74.5 kilonewtons (16,700 lbf) military thrust
122.58 kilonewtons (27,560 lbf) with afterburner
Overall pressure ratio: 23
Bypass ratio: 0.59:1
Turbine inlet temperature: 1685 K (1,412 °C (2,574 °F))
Fuel consumption: 2.0 Kg/daN·h
Specific fuel consumption:
Military thrust: 0.67 lb/(lbf·h)
Full afterburner: 1.92 lb/(lbf·h)
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 4.77:1 (dry), 7.87:1 (afterburning)

http://all-aero.com/index.php/component ... 1-umpo-117
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Unread post27 May 2020, 07:50

Wow, if that's read that way, then F-135 is indeed the same as F-119. lol

viewtopic.php?t=11992
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Unread post27 May 2020, 08:06

Done playing your usual games......
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Unread post27 May 2020, 09:03

*Hold my drink*


F-100
Powerplant: 2 × Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 (or −229) afterburning turbofan, 14,590 lbf (64.9 kN) thrust each dry, 23,770 lbf (105.7 kN) with afterburner

Powerplant: 2 × Eurojet EJ200 afterburning turbofan engines, 60 kN (13,000 lbf) thrust each [266] dry, 90 kN (20,000 lbf) with afterburner


F-119
Performance
Maximum thrust:
26,000 lbf (116 kN) (military thrust)
>35,000 lbf (156 kN) (with afterburner)[N 1][18]

F-135

Performance
Maximum thrust:
28,000 lbf (128 kN) military thrust,
43,000 lbf (191 kN) with afterburner

Advent will be 45klbs of thrust Im assuming wet.
Now look at the Russian and Chiness engines and tell me what generation they belong in.

2016, with the latter focused on developing and testing a 45,000 lbf (200 kN) thrust class adaptive cycle engine for next generation fighter aircraft and potential F-35 re-engining.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptiv ... Technology


The F-22 F-35 engines are clearly a generational leap over anything the Russians or the Chinese can field.
Also your claiming development of the Russian engine as progress? The Americans could easily start mass producing the advent engine within a year. The bottom line is that until they fix this, they will never defeat the Americans in battle.
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Unread post27 May 2020, 09:06

jessmo112 wrote:F-100
Powerplant: 2 × Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 (or −229) afterburning turbofan, 14,590 lbf (64.9 kN) thrust each dry, 23,770 lbf (105.7 kN) with afterburner

Powerplant: 2 × Eurojet EJ200 afterburning turbofan engines, 60 kN (13,000 lbf) thrust each [266] dry, 90 kN (20,000 lbf) with afterburner


F-119
Performance
Maximum thrust:
26,000 lbf (116 kN) (military thrust)
>35,000 lbf (156 kN) (with afterburner)[N 1][18]

F-135

Performance
Maximum thrust:
28,000 lbf (128 kN) military thrust,
43,000 lbf (191 kN) with afterburner

Advent will be 45klbs of thrust Im assuming wet.
Now look at the Russian and Chiness engines and tell me what generation they belong in.

2016, with the latter focused on developing and testing a 45,000 lbf (200 kN) thrust class adaptive cycle engine for next generation fighter aircraft and potential F-35 re-engining.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptiv ... Technology


The F-22 F-35 engines are clearly a generational leap over anything the Russians or the Chinese can field.
Also your claiming development of the Russian engine as progress? The Americans could easily start mass producing the advent engine within a year. The bottom line is that until they fix this, they will never defeat the Americans in battle.



I was not directly comparing Chinese Engines with Western Types. I was simply stating China was making progress gaining ground on Russia. While, even surpassing them in some respects. Both easily supportable....
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Unread post27 May 2020, 09:27

jessmo112 wrote:The F-22 F-35 engines are clearly a generational leap over anything the Russians or the Chinese can field.
Also your claiming development of the Russian engine as progress? The Americans could easily start mass producing the advent engine within a year. The bottom line is that until they fix this, they will never defeat the Americans in battle.


Its a little bit more nuanced. Twin AL-31Fs generate more thrust than a single F-135 even with advent. The gap between the F119 and the AL-41 thrust is narrow. And there isn't a twin "F-135 gen" engined USAF fighter flying yet.
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Unread post27 May 2020, 09:40

I think the true trust of the F-119 is classified.
Ive seen numbers where the engine was rated at 39k wet.
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Unread post27 May 2020, 09:47

Recent picture of the J-31...


J31G.jpg
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Unread post27 May 2020, 09:48

jessmo112 wrote:I think the true trust of the F-119 is classified.
Ive seen numbers where the engine was rated at 39k wet.


I would agree with your post. The assumption being that the same doesn't apply to "official" AL-41 thrust numbers.

Those 180+ raptors are certainly precious indeed.
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Unread post27 May 2020, 10:17

weasel1962 wrote:
jessmo112 wrote:I think the true trust of the F-119 is classified.
Ive seen numbers where the engine was rated at 39k wet.


I would agree with your post. The assumption being that the same doesn't apply to "official" AL-41 thrust numbers.

Those 180+ raptors are certainly precious indeed.


Weasel I want your input.

1. How do the Chinese get a carrier capable aircraft, thats not j-33?

2. How do you develope an engine in enough time to be relevant? That is before the U.S. makes another generational leap

3. Would you wait on the J-31 engine?
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Unread post27 May 2020, 11:33

Responding in full will take awhile. J-15 = Su-33. China carrier capability adopts a low risk evolutionary approach. Take a base design then amend, improve, amend, improve. J-15 = copy Su-33 first. Then J-15 catapult launch and that's where we are currently at. Before China puts a plane on a carrier, they test out their planes/prototypes first at land bases (with carrier mock up). No way to hide airfields from sight so that's the first sign. From flight to service takes several years.

In short, no need weasel's input. Just wait for any new carrier prototype variant to appear, then there will be a long period with enough time for speculation before it enters service. So far 3 fixed wing aircraft are noted or officially declared as carrier variants. J-15, Lijian UCAV and JL-9 trainer variant (not yet spotted flying from carrier test). Note existing FC-31 prototypes aren't carrier variants.

On engine development, it takes years/decades to develop. Its a function of investment, technology (access) and sometimes a little of luck. One doesn't normally read about ongoing projects in China but no need to guess that future engine designs are ongoing. Just look at Xian Aero-Engine. 96,000 staff tied to multiple universities throughout China and other countries. Think of the level of investment. Add ToT from earlier engine assembly e.g. Spey. Add civilian tech like joint manufacture of turbine disks. Take apart a few AL-31s. Add engine plans obtained from Ukraine thru a 41% stake in motor sich. Take an AL-31 core, amend, improve. Viola WS-10 appears.

J-31 is an export fighter, with RD-93 engines. Aircraft are designed around engines. If want a more powerful engine, need to redesign or be limited by the original engine design. Why do so when there is a J-20? Only issue is that J-20 isn't a carrier design but wait, neither is J-31. So if you are China, would you design a new plane around an engine that you haven't used in your air force (like RD-93/WS-13) or would you use a more powerful engine that is already available, in production and used by the plane being replaced or better yet, a future engine in development? Sure, a future plane takes time to develop but hey, there are already legacy planes in production equipping existing carriers. I think which option is least likely should be self evident.

I also think we need to understand China's R&D cycle. They start a new fighter project quite early after the earlier one enters production. J-10 first flight 1998. J-20 first flight 2011. A next gen fighter may not take that long. J-15 first flight was 2009. CV 16 was commissioned 2011. J-15 catapult launches were experimented 2016 (that is the minimum). CV 18 is expected to start assembly end 2020 or 2021. I suspect the next gen carrier fighter may have already been in development for awhile but will have to appear soon if for CV 18.

P.s. Can't however discount that China does a Boeing to keep Shenyang in the picture. Having said that, more likely to buy J-16s than J-31s at this time.
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