USAF wants to retire 33 Raptors

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Apr 2022, 05:29

madrat wrote:It's pretty clear the current Air Force head is planning to cut the service in half over 5 years.



You mean the Biden Administration......The USAF always wants more not less!
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Unread post09 Apr 2022, 12:51

charlielima223 wrote:@Corsair
Must you walk into every thread and ruin it with your usual "F-35 is bestest" rant?

Back to the topic at hand.
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/oldest- ... o-service/
If they're able to take the oldest F-22 out of storage and make it operational again for test and development flights again, why cant they take these block 20 F-22s and turn them into combat aircraft?


So, resurrecting one jet for the test fleet is different than a squadron of 33 in terms of operating costs. USAF seems to think the money can be spent elsewhere, such as more money for upgrading combat coded F-22s and NGAD. One thing I read is that because Block 20 jets are quite different from combat coded jets, it takes longer for pilots to transition when they get to their squadrons.

I still think retiring the Block 20 jets is premature though.
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Unread post09 Apr 2022, 13:51

Host: Lt Col (Ret.) John “Slick” Baum, Senior Fellow, The Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies
Guest: Maj (Ret.) Heather “Lucky” Penney, Senior Fellow, The Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies
Guest: Lt Gen (Ret.) David Deptula, Dean, The Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies
Guest: Doug Birkey, Executive Director, The Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies
Guest: Col (Ret.) Mark “Gonzo” Gunzinger, Director of Future Concepts and Capabilities Assessments, The Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies


This podcast talks about NGAD, F-22, and force structure.
I'd listen from the beginning, it's only about 37 minutes.
Here are a few interesting comments.

https://youtu.be/i5BYWJhP8Rk?t=857
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charlielima223

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Unread post09 Apr 2022, 20:59

F-16ADF wrote:Host: Lt Col (Ret.) John “Slick” Baum, Senior Fellow, The Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies
Guest: Maj (Ret.) Heather “Lucky” Penney, Senior Fellow, The Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies
Guest: Lt Gen (Ret.) David Deptula, Dean, The Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies
Guest: Doug Birkey, Executive Director, The Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies
Guest: Col (Ret.) Mark “Gonzo” Gunzinger, Director of Future Concepts and Capabilities Assessments, The Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies


This podcast talks about NGAD, F-22, and force structure.
I'd listen from the beginning, it's only about 37 minutes.
Here are a few interesting comments.

https://youtu.be/i5BYWJhP8Rk?t=857


Really great find. Thanks for sharing
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Unread post09 Apr 2022, 23:31

CL223, I thought it was pretty sweet too. Cool info. :D
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Unread post10 Apr 2022, 00:35

mixelflick wrote:What a fustercluck..

When the final chapter is written in Raptor history, it'll be a case study in how to f*** up the most dominant air to air platform in history. From start to finish the only thing that went well was the actual finished product. Everything else they screwed up. They didnt' build enough of them, failed to maximize their capability (how long have we waited for a helmet mounted sight?) and failed to keep them in service long enough.

The short sightedness of USAF is stunning, and a series of bad decisions has left us weaker as a nation, not stronger. Unless they have NGAD's sitting around somewhere in squadron strength, this was incredibly stupid IMO. Another BIG mistake and error in USAF's judgement. Even if these aircraft couldn't carry weapons, they'd still be useful to us and dangerous to our enemies.

Mistakes have consequences. Good people are going to die, simple as that...


This wasn't a USAF Decision. This was Obama admin/SecDef Gates killing the program.
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Unread post10 Apr 2022, 01:57

daswp wrote:
mixelflick wrote:What a fustercluck..

When the final chapter is written in Raptor history, it'll be a case study in how to f*** up the most dominant air to air platform in history. From start to finish the only thing that went well was the actual finished product. Everything else they screwed up. They didnt' build enough of them, failed to maximize their capability (how long have we waited for a helmet mounted sight?) and failed to keep them in service long enough.

The short sightedness of USAF is stunning, and a series of bad decisions has left us weaker as a nation, not stronger. Unless they have NGAD's sitting around somewhere in squadron strength, this was incredibly stupid IMO. Another BIG mistake and error in USAF's judgement. Even if these aircraft couldn't carry weapons, they'd still be useful to us and dangerous to our enemies.

Mistakes have consequences. Good people are going to die, simple as that...


This wasn't a USAF Decision. This was Obama admin/SecDef Gates killing the program.


I wont put the blame squarely on the Obama Administration and the SecDef at that time. Talks about reducing the number of F-22s to be acquired was seen all the way back in the Clinton and Bush Jr Administration. Military and political priorities were also a huge factor. Military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan put less emphasis on F-22 then on MRAPs and developing better PGMs. Also DoD is notorious for spending money on grandiose projects and trials that end up going nowhere. Sure they had Russia and China in their peripheral vision but they werent the immediate concern at that time. It wasnt until Syria did they start to see how much an asset the F-22 really was/is.

I cant remember where I read it or heard it but someone said something along the line of, "F-22 was a phenomenal aircraft at the wrong time". Now there i nothing but regret that the F-22 was so curtailed and handicapped.
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Unread post10 Apr 2022, 03:05

charlielima223 wrote:
daswp wrote:
mixelflick wrote:What a fustercluck..

When the final chapter is written in Raptor history, it'll be a case study in how to f*** up the most dominant air to air platform in history. From start to finish the only thing that went well was the actual finished product. Everything else they screwed up. They didnt' build enough of them, failed to maximize their capability (how long have we waited for a helmet mounted sight?) and failed to keep them in service long enough.

The short sightedness of USAF is stunning, and a series of bad decisions has left us weaker as a nation, not stronger. Unless they have NGAD's sitting around somewhere in squadron strength, this was incredibly stupid IMO. Another BIG mistake and error in USAF's judgement. Even if these aircraft couldn't carry weapons, they'd still be useful to us and dangerous to our enemies.

Mistakes have consequences. Good people are going to die, simple as that...


This wasn't a USAF Decision. This was Obama admin/SecDef Gates killing the program.


I wont put the blame squarely on the Obama Administration and the SecDef at that time. Talks about reducing the number of F-22s to be acquired was seen all the way back in the Clinton and Bush Jr Administration. Military and political priorities were also a huge factor. Military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan put less emphasis on F-22 then on MRAPs and developing better PGMs. Also DoD is notorious for spending money on grandiose projects and trials that end up going nowhere. Sure they had Russia and China in their peripheral vision but they werent the immediate concern at that time. It wasnt until Syria did they start to see how much an asset the F-22 really was/is.

I cant remember where I read it or heard it but someone said something along the line of, "F-22 was a phenomenal aircraft at the wrong time". Now there i nothing but regret that the F-22 was so curtailed and handicapped.


Everyone played a part from Obama, Gates, to Congress. Plus, you have to take issue in context of the time and the events and budget realities that surround them......

Honestly, in my opinion Gates actually made the right choice at the time. Regardless, what many in the public may think otherwise....

McCain played a big role too! I remember discussing it with him once many years later. Man that guy had a "temper". Yet, his heart was in the right place. Of course considering what in went through as a POW. I guess its very understandable.
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Unread post10 Apr 2022, 18:26

So, do these retired aircraft end up replacing the retired F-117 out of the Tonopah TR?
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Unread post14 Apr 2022, 23:18

daswp wrote:So, do these retired aircraft end up replacing the retired F-117 out of the Tonopah TR?


Who knows.
Most likely they will go the way the F-14. Chopped up meticulously cataloged for destruction so foriegn adversaries dont get a good look at them.
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Unread post15 Apr 2022, 00:41

charlielima223 wrote:
daswp wrote:So, do these retired aircraft end up replacing the retired F-117 out of the Tonopah TR?


Who knows.
Most likely they will go the way the F-14. Chopped up meticulously cataloged for destruction so foriegn adversaries dont get a good look at them.


Only reason F-14 got shredded was to prevent parts from being smuggled to Iran, particularly the mechanical pets since the F-14 is pretty complex. Since no other country operates the F-22, difficult to see what can be salvaged if the important electronics are stripped or sealed. They would be useful as spare parts for combat coded F-22s, a few may even be used for adversary training like F-117s are right now.

That, and Dick Cheney had a hate boner for Grumman and the F-14 for some reason.
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Unread post15 Apr 2022, 14:19

disconnectedradical wrote:That, and Dick Cheney had a hate boner for Grumman and the F-14 for some reason.

Very much so. Called the F-14 a "jobs program for Grumman" and yet that's what the F-15EX is for Boeing.
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Unread post16 Apr 2022, 04:47

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:That, and Dick Cheney had a hate boner for Grumman and the F-14 for some reason.

Very much so. Called the F-14 a "jobs program for Grumman" and yet that's what the F-15EX is for Boeing.



Honestly, this is what irks me the most. Not that we would provide Boeing so much corporate welfare. Because we do need a healthy defense industry and to foster competition within it.


Yet, so many other urgent programs that Boeing is involved. Which, could use more funding. Instead of wasting it on things like the F-15EX.

Like the Redhawk T-7A Advanced Trainer and MQ-25A Stingray Drone Tanker just to name two!
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Unread post16 Apr 2022, 16:15

At this point I question if most of McDonald Boeing deserves to be saved. The 787 and X-32 were the only innovative designs since the reverse takeover in either the commercial or fighter sector. "Boeing" has only been hawking revamped McDD fighters and tweaked legacy Boeing commercial airliners since.
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