F22 vs Rafale maneuverability (please move it to F22 forum)

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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gta4

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Unread post17 Sep 2021, 18:25

Note: I don't mind who locked on whom. I only care which has better maneuverability. Using pilot skill to make up for performance gap is not interesting to me.
Source:
(From French pilot interview)
1.jpg

4.jpg

Vocabulary:
deux paramètres principaux: two main factors
donnent au Raptor: Give the Raptor
avantage: advantage
combat tournoyant: turning fight
pousée vectorielle: thrust vectoring
immense: immense
puissance: power
redoutable: formidable
manoeuverabilité: maneuverability
plupart des situations délicates en BFM: most of the delicate situations in BFM
se sortir de: succeeded in coming out on top (see appendix)
incidence très élevé: very high angle of attack
énergie: energy
rapidement: rapidely
récupérée: recovered
se gardent bien: is not willing to
qualifier: qualify
invulnérable: invulnerable
peut: may
en position de tir canon: at gun firing position
mais: however
sous peine de: under the punishment of
inverser: reversed
duel: duel
éternise: drag on

Generally, the Raptor has formidable maneuverability. Compared to the Rafale, the Raptor is both better angular-wise and energy-wise, which helps it to come out on top in most delicate BFM scenarios. Even energy is lost in pulling massive AOA, it is recovered immediately. However, french pilots are reluctant to qualify the Raptor invulnerable. Facing a Raptor, the Rafale may be put into a gun position, but it must do it very quickly, otherwise there is a punishment that the role is reversed if the battle drags on.

Appendix: the translation of "se sortir de (shortened to s'en sortir in dictionary)":
This is an expression which is not taken literally. It means "to succeed in coming out on top"
s_en_sortir_translation.png
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smady3

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Unread post17 Sep 2021, 20:13

What's your point ? In any BFM depends on the rules of engagement.
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pakal

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Unread post18 Sep 2021, 10:29

Optronics (OSF) can detect any stealh aircraft at good distance in good weather condition. At night or in clouds i guess it will be more difficult
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LinkF16SimDude

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Unread post19 Sep 2021, 07:29

pakal wrote:Optronics (OSF) can detect any stealh aircraft at good distance in good weather condition. At night or in clouds i guess it will be more difficult
IMHO...Yes...with enough image contrast, most modern optical trackers can see pretty much anything in the visible spectrum. And at impressive distances. But you can't just have the camera sweep surface to 50K feet out to 40, 60 or 80 miles by itself and expect it to pickup and track a bogey. In order to look in the target's direction most optical trackers need cueing from the radar (i.e. a "skin paint"; not necessarily a full-on lock) or perhaps a GCI station.

Unless the Raptor(s) in these engagements had active RCS enhancements, the chances of getting a skin paint big enough to cue the optic, even with an AESA set, at a tactically advantageous range before the Raptor reaches his engagement zone is pretty slim. It makes for a good mag article but without knowing the ROE and the engagement setups (plus a readable translation...no offense) we can only speculate. Just my :2c:
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hornetfinn

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Unread post20 Sep 2021, 12:30

I think it's pretty easy to understand. F-22 is definitely not invulnerable in BFM and Rafale is top notch 4th gen fighter. Rafale is powerful and maneuverable like late block F-16 and likely has some performance advantages compared to F-16s. The French text seems to indicate that F-22 has better high-AoA maneveurability and is more powerful, so it's a very difficult opponent for anybody in BFM. Of course F-22 pilots would try to avoid WVR combat in real shooting war, as their advantages are the smallest there and biggest in BVR where stealth and long-range SA are the key. A modern 4th gen fighter with modern HOBS IIR missiles and HMS/HMD (which Rafale is lacking for the most part) is going to be really dangerous for anybody in WVR but F-22 has little to fear in BVR.

So the answer is that F-22 has better maneuverability overall, but Rafale is very maneuverable and powerful fighter making things interesting in WVR. ROEs, individual skills and many other things will affect the end result.
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optimist

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Unread post14 Jan 2022, 18:11

Come on guys. It's a Guns only dogfight. Radar and IR works against the F-22 at very very very close range. Why is this a thing? If it was 15 mile WVR, it might be different. anyway, the F-22 does its work BVR.

This French pilot gives a good account, even with the French bias. If nothing else, it can be used to shut the frog trolls up. The Rafale never got a gun kill.
He repeats numerous times. IT'S GUNS ONLY. (The F-22 takes the defensive and Rafale the aggressive position.)


1:50 Ate says the F-22 reverses its turn making it easy for the Rafale. which fires an IR , which cannot be claimed as it is guns only. (In actual fact, I think the F-22 was maneuvering to wash off speed to let the Rafale come within range for the dogfight.)
4:00 R calls Fox 2. (That really excited the fanboys) ..It's a practice shot, Ate said he called it out of habit and doesn't count as it is guns only.
5:00 Ate says he switches to guns.
6:00 Ate says about HMS and HOBS, The f-22 and Rafale doesn't ...(but just about everything else does.)
6:40 Ate says Rafale doesn't have the nose authority to follow the F-22. the f-22 can move.
9:00 Ate says the Rafale is at 80kts and below the 100kts minimum. :mrgreen: ( the Rafale stalled out and was sitting there like a duck.)

11:40 Ate says the F-22 outperforms the Rafale and closes the door. ( Of course it does.)
12:20 Ate says: "Not enough energy for the Rafale, missing a few kts"..... (The Rafale can't regain energy quickly. The F-22 most certainly can and is one of the few planes that can.)

12:40 The F-22 stops the fight and retreats. The Rafale is below the stall speed at 80 kts ( again. :mrgreen: the thing is a slug.)
14:00 Rafale continues and picks up speed, has a good position on the F-22, the Rafale does not trigger. (The F-22 has already called the fight and is just flying straight. :roll: )
17:30 Ate, repeat that the F-22 called the fight at 12:40 and why the F-22 did not maneuver.
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pakal

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Unread post14 Jan 2022, 19:30

But this old story took place in 2009. Since then the Rafale hat evolved to F3R version and will evolve to F4
Same i guess for the F22
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wrightwing

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Unread post14 Jan 2022, 19:52

pakal wrote:But this old story took place in 2009. Since then the Rafale hat evolved to F3R version and will evolve to F4
Same i guess for the F22

That wouldn't matter in a guns only fight. The Rafale still has the same kinematics (assuming it hasn't added weight.)
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optimist

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Unread post14 Jan 2022, 23:38

pakal wrote:But this old story took place in 2009. Since then the Rafale hat evolved to F3R version and will evolve to F4
Same i guess for the F22

I fully expect resistance. This myth has became a belief. It's like active cancellation.

It was the French gov who released the video. It didn't show what they thought it did. It put the Rafale pilot in a difficult position. Even Ate is trying to do the right thing and put it in context. He released that video late last year.

2009? We have been hearing about it ever since. With the video, nonsense articles and fanboy cite that the Rafale is better than the F-22. It's a BS story then and it's still BS. I was just using a respected French pilot to say it.

This is a similar thread that was locked. It covers most and starts with a French source calling BS.
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=28459&hilit=rafale
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