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AF Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2021, 16:08
by tbarlow
Air Force Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22 Raptor in Fighter Downsize

12 May 2021- Military.com | By Oriana Pawlyk

The U.S. Air Force wants to downsize from seven types of fighter jets or attack aircraft to a mix of four, including the A-10 Warthog close-air support aircraft, the service's top general said Wednesday.

Speaking during the annual McAleese conference, Gen. Charles "CQ" Brown said the service expects to determine the right mix of aircraft for the future through its "TacAir study." It will also assess how future fighter concepts will fit into the current mix of fourth- and fifth-generation fighters. But noticeably absent from his list were the F-22 Raptor stealth fighter and F-15E Strike Eagle.

"My intent is to get down to about four," Brown said during a panel. "And really, a four plus one, because we're going to have the A-10 for a while ... [the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter], which will be the cornerstone, the F-15EX, and then we're going to have [the F-16 Fighting Falcon] for a while as well."

Brown said the fighter mix also will include the Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) program, which defies the traditional categorization of a single platform, featuring a network potentially including an advanced fighter aircraft alongside sensors, weapons or drones in a growing and unpredictable threat environment.

Service leaders have hinted that while the F-15EX, a fourth-plus generation fighter, is meant to replace the legacy F-15C/D models, it also could replace the E Strike Eagle model in the future, given its weapons load. The F-15EX, known as the Eagle II, will someday incorporate "hypersonic weapons up to 22 feet long and weighing up to 7,000 pounds," according to Boeing Co., its manufacturer. The service first revealed it could replace the E with the EX "as an option" in a 2019 Justification and Approval request.

The F-22, meanwhile, has needed an increasing number of repairs and upgrades in recent years, including improvements to its low-observable stealth coating.

[...]

Full article: https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 ... nsize.html .

Re: AF Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2021, 17:26
by XanderCrews
Air dominance for Decade

Re: AF Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2021, 17:55
by sferrin
tbarlow wrote:https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/05/12/air-force-chief-hints-retiring-f-22-raptor-fighter-downsize.html

Air Force Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22 Raptor in Fighter Downsize

12 May 2021
Military.com | By Oriana Pawlyk
The U.S. Air Force wants to downsize from seven types of fighter jets or attack aircraft to a mix of four, including the A-10 Warthog close-air support aircraft, the service's top general said Wednesday.

Speaking during the annual McAleese conference, Gen. Charles "CQ" Brown said the service expects to determine the right mix of aircraft for the future through its "TacAir study." It will also assess how future fighter concepts will fit into the current mix of fourth- and fifth-generation fighters. But noticeably absent from his list were the F-22 Raptor stealth fighter and F-15E Strike Eagle.

"My intent is to get down to about four," Brown said during a panel. "And really, a four plus one, because we're going to have the A-10 for a while ... [the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter], which will be the cornerstone, the F-15EX, and then we're going to have [the F-16 Fighting Falcon] for a while as well."

Brown said the fighter mix also will include the Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) program, which defies the traditional categorization of a single platform, featuring a network potentially including an advanced fighter aircraft alongside sensors, weapons or drones in a growing and unpredictable threat environment.

Service leaders have hinted that while the F-15EX, a fourth-plus generation fighter, is meant to replace the legacy F-15C/D models, it also could replace the E Strike Eagle model in the future, given its weapons load. The F-15EX, known as the Eagle II, will someday incorporate "hypersonic weapons up to 22 feet long and weighing up to 7,000 pounds," according to Boeing Co., its manufacturer. The service first revealed it could replace the E with the EX "as an option" in a 2019 Justification and Approval request.

The F-22, meanwhile, has needed an increasing number of repairs and upgrades in recent years, including improvements to its low-observable stealth coating.

Earlier in the McAleese session, Lt. Gen. David S. Nahom, deputy chief of staff for plans and programs for the Air Force, said the F-22 is the dominant air superiority platform in the service's inventory. But he admitted there are shortfalls, especially in the maintenance of the aircraft.

"The crews that fly and the crews that maintain and fix it are just amazing people because that is a tough airplane to maintain, and move around," he said.

The stealthy F-35 has more durable low-observable technology because the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps each fly a variant of the aircraft designed for different scenarios, from landing on conventional runways on land, catching arresting cables on aircraft carriers, to hovering down on amphibious assault ships.

"We're going to have to go past that [to] where the threat is moving, where the technology is moving," Nahom said, referencing a fighter that offers more than the F-22 in air-to-air combat.

The F-35 fleet eclipsed the number of F-22s in 2019 -- with 203 at the end of that fiscal year; the Air Force capped its Raptor fleet at 187 in 2009 (it currently has 186). As noted by The Drive, one-third of the F-22 fleet is not combat-coded -- or operational for a wartime mission -- at any given time.

Earlier this month, Brown said the Air Force's F-35 fleet also officially surpassed the number of F-15 and A-10s, becoming the second-largest fighter jet fleet in its aircraft inventory.

Air Force spokeswoman Maj. Malinda Singleton told Military.com last week that the service has 283 F-35s, which exceeds the A-10 fleet by two aircraft. According to the Air Force Association's 2020 aircraft almanac, the service has 241 F-15C/D models and 218 Strike Eagles.

-- Oriana Pawlyk can be reached at oriana.pawlyk@military.com. Follow her on Twitter at @Oriana0214.


And I thought the Navy were the stupid ones. :doh:

Re: AF Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2021, 21:25
by XanderCrews
sferrin wrote:
tbarlow wrote:https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/05/12/air-force-chief-hints-retiring-f-22-raptor-fighter-downsize.html

Air Force Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22 Raptor in Fighter Downsize

12 May 2021
Military.com | By Oriana Pawlyk
The U.S. Air Force wants to downsize from seven types of fighter jets or attack aircraft to a mix of four, including the A-10 Warthog close-air support aircraft, the service's top general said Wednesday.

Speaking during the annual McAleese conference, Gen. Charles "CQ" Brown said the service expects to determine the right mix of aircraft for the future through its "TacAir study." It will also assess how future fighter concepts will fit into the current mix of fourth- and fifth-generation fighters. But noticeably absent from his list were the F-22 Raptor stealth fighter and F-15E Strike Eagle.

"My intent is to get down to about four," Brown said during a panel. "And really, a four plus one, because we're going to have the A-10 for a while ... [the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter], which will be the cornerstone, the F-15EX, and then we're going to have [the F-16 Fighting Falcon] for a while as well."

Brown said the fighter mix also will include the Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) program, which defies the traditional categorization of a single platform, featuring a network potentially including an advanced fighter aircraft alongside sensors, weapons or drones in a growing and unpredictable threat environment.

Service leaders have hinted that while the F-15EX, a fourth-plus generation fighter, is meant to replace the legacy F-15C/D models, it also could replace the E Strike Eagle model in the future, given its weapons load. The F-15EX, known as the Eagle II, will someday incorporate "hypersonic weapons up to 22 feet long and weighing up to 7,000 pounds," according to Boeing Co., its manufacturer. The service first revealed it could replace the E with the EX "as an option" in a 2019 Justification and Approval request.

The F-22, meanwhile, has needed an increasing number of repairs and upgrades in recent years, including improvements to its low-observable stealth coating.

Earlier in the McAleese session, Lt. Gen. David S. Nahom, deputy chief of staff for plans and programs for the Air Force, said the F-22 is the dominant air superiority platform in the service's inventory. But he admitted there are shortfalls, especially in the maintenance of the aircraft.

"The crews that fly and the crews that maintain and fix it are just amazing people because that is a tough airplane to maintain, and move around," he said.

The stealthy F-35 has more durable low-observable technology because the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps each fly a variant of the aircraft designed for different scenarios, from landing on conventional runways on land, catching arresting cables on aircraft carriers, to hovering down on amphibious assault ships.

"We're going to have to go past that [to] where the threat is moving, where the technology is moving," Nahom said, referencing a fighter that offers more than the F-22 in air-to-air combat.

The F-35 fleet eclipsed the number of F-22s in 2019 -- with 203 at the end of that fiscal year; the Air Force capped its Raptor fleet at 187 in 2009 (it currently has 186). As noted by The Drive, one-third of the F-22 fleet is not combat-coded -- or operational for a wartime mission -- at any given time.

Earlier this month, Brown said the Air Force's F-35 fleet also officially surpassed the number of F-15 and A-10s, becoming the second-largest fighter jet fleet in its aircraft inventory.

Air Force spokeswoman Maj. Malinda Singleton told Military.com last week that the service has 283 F-35s, which exceeds the A-10 fleet by two aircraft. According to the Air Force Association's 2020 aircraft almanac, the service has 241 F-15C/D models and 218 Strike Eagles.

-- Oriana Pawlyk can be reached at oriana.pawlyk@military.com. Follow her on Twitter at @Oriana0214.


And I thought the Navy were the stupid ones. :doh:



I called it a month ago in the "F-15EX is useless" thread.

Re: AF Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2021, 21:33
by madrat
It's the we will hold our greatest asset hostage to force Congress to give us more.

Re: AF Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2021, 02:17
by charlielima223
They didn't get enough to properly retire the F-15A and C fleet. So now they're trying to tourniquet the on going issue by using the F-35 (though very capable was never meant as a next gen air superiority) and a brand new version of F-15EX

Image

Re: AF Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2021, 12:15
by mixelflick
The entire F-22 buy should be used as a study in how to f#$% up the most capable fighter ever produced. In fact, I'd make a film out of it so future generations don't screw up as bad. From start to finish, they messed up at every turn. Industry handed them the most dominant air superiority platform in history - and they blew it.

I just heard the Chinese are building a statue of Robert Gates and good ole "CQ" here in Tiananmen Square

Re: AF Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2021, 14:27
by sferrin
^--- What he said. :-x

Re: AF Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2021, 19:03
by zero-one
I wouldn't read too much into this. Remember when they also said thatbwithout the F-22, the F-35 will be irrelevant. Turns out that was taken out of context.

The USAF is throwing everything including the Kitchen sink to get more funds. They called it the F/A-22 at one point when it was being labled a single role aircraft. They used it as a bomber in Syria and called it a "trial by fire" when lets admit an A-7 could have done what it did back there.

They can't even retire the A-10 despite having a multuple aircraft that can fill its role.

Re: AF Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2021, 21:05
by XanderCrews
zero-one wrote:I wouldn't read too much into this. Remember when they also said thatbwithout the F-22, the F-35 will be irrelevant. Turns out that was taken out of context.

The USAF is throwing everything including the Kitchen sink to get more funds. They called it the F/A-22 at one point when it was being labled a single role aircraft. They used it as a bomber in Syria and called it a "trial by fire" when lets admit an A-7 could have done what it did back there.



false

https://www.airforcemag.com/the-f-22s-u ... ver-syria/

Re: AF Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2021, 22:30
by h-bomb
zero-one wrote: They can't even retire the A-10 despite having a multuple aircraft that can fill its role.


Exactly what aircraft do we have capable of the low speed - high maneuverability of the A-10? The prolonged loitering near troops to provide CAS, the SIGHT of the A-10 out weights the threat of being bombed.

Unlike the F-15/16/18/35 the A-10 cam efficiently flow low and slow to perform the "Sandy" mission that no supersonic aircraft will ever be able to perform. I would love to see a fully loaded F-15E(X) escorting a HH-60.

Re: AF Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2021, 11:11
by milosh
charlielima223 wrote:They didn't get enough to properly retire the F-15A and C fleet. So now they're trying to tourniquet the on going issue by using the F-35 (though very capable was never meant as a next gen air superiority) and a brand new version of F-15EX


Maybe they plan to speed up NGAD? NGAD using same engine as F-35 and probable quite similar electronics (we can look at it as two engined F-35) would be lot easier on logistics then F-22 is so even though it would cost a lot to develop and buy on long run ~400 NGAD could even cost less to operate then ~200 old F-22.

So I retiring 200 F-22 and reducing F-35A for lets say 200 planes, while getting 400 NGAD doesn't sound bad at all.

Re: AF Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2021, 14:20
by mixelflick
milosh wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:They didn't get enough to properly retire the F-15A and C fleet. So now they're trying to tourniquet the on going issue by using the F-35 (though very capable was never meant as a next gen air superiority) and a brand new version of F-15EX


Maybe they plan to speed up NGAD? NGAD using same engine as F-35 and probable quite similar electronics (we can look at it as two engined F-35) would be lot easier on logistics then F-22 is so even though it would cost a lot to develop and buy on long run ~400 NGAD could even cost less to operate then ~200 old F-22.

So I retiring 200 F-22 and reducing F-35A for lets say 200 planes, while getting 400 NGAD doesn't sound bad at all.


Logic would dictate they actually don't go through with this. Unfortunately, illogical behavior on the part of USAF/"leadership" is all too common. If they are floating this idea now, they must be awful confident in either 1.) The F-35 or 2.) NGAD. Given the recent quips about a "5th gen" minus aircraft, I'll assume #2 is the real reason.

This might also be the way the Israeli's get access to the F-22. That possibility IMO, can't be discounted...

Re: AF Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2021, 15:25
by madrat
I'd want a Tier 1 ally to have access to the leasing of F-22A at strategic strangle-points. Australia? The UK? Italy? Japan? Israel?

Keeping them operating in the hands of a close ally puts further pressure on strategic foes. The allies would likely find their dual-use nature to be quite handy.

Re: AF Chief Hints at Retiring the F-22

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2021, 01:08
by alloycowboy
madrat wrote:I'd want a Tier 1 ally to have access to the leasing of F-22A at strategic strangle-points. Australia? The UK? Italy? Japan? Israel?

Keeping them operating in the hands of a close ally puts further pressure on strategic foes. The allies would likely find their dual-use nature to be quite handy.



@Madrat, why would American allies want the F-22 as opposed to the F-35. The only advantage the F-22 has is that it has a slighty faster supersonic dash speed and slighty better maneuverability. But for the most part the F-35's sensors, computers, and networking on the F-35 pretty much negate any really world advantage the F-22 offers.